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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:23 PM

    RE: mastodon.social/@sjvn/11682862

    There's a spiel about job listings I regularly give to students who are going on the tech job market (an utterly miserable and exploitative experience, the way we treat new entrants to the field…seriously…ugh). The students never quite believe me when I give it, but I give it anyway — and I'll now be using this job listing as yet another piece of evidence (if it’s real, which it may not be!).

    The upshot of the spiel is “job listings usually don't mean what they say, no matter how clearly they say it, and you can’t really read them literally.”

    1/

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Replies

  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:28 PM

    A grab bag of of things that usually go in that spiel:

    - Most job listings are formed using a fill-in-the-blank process (like Mad Libs), without any concern for whether the parts make sense together (like Mad Libs)

    - That fill-in-the-blank process is frequently done in part or in whole by someone in HR who isn’t even on the team that’s doing the hiring, doesn’t understand the tech, and doesn’t know the position or the team’s needs

    2/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:31 PM

    - “Years of experience” often does not literally mean years of experience; it means something about what internal rank or salary track the position will be slotted into, and thus how the company will treat the person who’s hired into this position

    3/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:31 PM

    - Mention of a specific technology often does •not• mean they’ll only consider someone who already knows that technology, but instead may mean things like “HR asked the team and they said they use this language,” or “the CEO heard about this and wants it in our job listings,” or “we heard we can pay developers who using this language less money,” or “well we had to put SOMETHING”

    4/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:33 PM

    - For all the reasons above, “job requirements” are frequently not requirements at all; they’re the company sending out •vibes• about the position — either to attract candidates, or (at least as likely) to please internal stakeholders with no consideration for the actual effect on candidates

    - So don’t feel constrained by the published job description

    5/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:37 PM

    - But there •are• real requirements

    - usually unstated

    - that often even the interviewers doing the hiring aren’t aware they’re applying

    - and they’re frequently social / shibboleth / ingroup / identity requirements

    - specifically sexist, agist, and racist

    - but also internal company churn / fomo / turf war stuff

    - all of which has nothing to do with your worth as a human being

    6/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:40 PM

    - The only ways through / around all this that I’m aware of involve

    (1) making real connections with real human beings whenever possible, not just job listings,

    (2) continuing to try and try and try (ugh), and

    (3) believing, deeply believing, that the hiring process is 95% not about you — which is a cruel truth, but also a good reminder not to internalize the way businesses treat you.

    7/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:46 PM

    A cruelty of all this is that it rewards the people who are already the most privileged, the most likely to believe in their own ability / worth regardless of external cues, perhaps the most likely to overestimate themselves.

    When a job says “5 years of FancyFramework experience,” I guarantee you that there is a lopsided distribution of identity traits (male, white, etc) to those people who are applying anyway despite only using FancyFramework for 2-3 years. And I guarantee you some of those people who don’t meet the “requirements” will be under real consideration for the hire.

    It’s a self-selection process that amplifies any inequality a person can internalize.

    8/

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:47 PM

    At least one person says the original QP is satire, which I can easily believe:

    hellinger.wtf/@holger/11682939

    The real evidence here is not “ha, this one company did a stupid, look at the screenshot;” it’s that, satire or not, when people see that listing, the common reaction is “oh, ha, yeah, that totally happens.” (I remember a listing that required 5 years of Swift experience just 1 year after the language was released.)

    I do wish our hiring processes were more humane. But they’re not really for humans, are they?

    /end

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  • Vmiss_rodent@girlcock.club
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:39 PM

    @inthehands If you're any sort of visibly-identifiable minority, it helps to (emotionally/psychologically) prepare for failing job interviews before you actually open your mouth... -_-;
    That's been a common experience for me (trans), I've heard similar from people of colour, cis women, visibly disabled folks....

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  • tuban_muzurutuban_muzuru@beige.party
    Jun 28, 2026, 9:16 PM

    @inthehands

    Here's how I interview anyone: first tell me what you're any good at, what you're really good at, what do people ask you to do.

    Always find something good and useful in those people, whether or not you hire them.

    I can't teach people to care but i can sort out a dozen people with disparate talents onto pretty much any project, this way, let them assume responsibility for certain aspects of the project.

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  • Woozle Hypertwinwoozle@toot.cat
    Jun 28, 2026, 9:31 PM

    @tuban_muzuru @inthehands

    At the org we're slowly assembling, the plan is to build the work around the people. Find good people you can trust to be diligent, give them a choice of problems to solve and resources to work with, and then let them figure out how to proceed.

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  • Woozle Hypertwinwoozle@toot.cat
    Jun 28, 2026, 9:27 PM

    @inthehands This explains much of the frustration that has led to me no longer bothering to apply for tech jobs.

    Maybe the companies that use these broken processes will soon start to collapse under the deadweight of accumulated techbros? A girl can dream...

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 10:26 PM

    @woozle

    A lot of us are dreaming that dream. But it never ceases to amaze me how dysfunctional businesses can be and keep existing.

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  • DavidM_yegDavidM_yeg@beige.party
    Jun 29, 2026, 2:52 AM

    @woozle @inthehands

    I’ve spent my entire life hearing the idea that private businesses are inherently more efficient than government presented as established fact, and I’ve always thought it was the most ridiculous, counter-factual and easily disproved assertion.

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  • Blakeblake@friscode.dev
    Jun 28, 2026, 10:32 PM

    @inthehands In 1997 I recall reading a job posting (on Dice I think) that required 5 years of Java experience. I can't be certain, but do not think it was satire. (Sun released Java in 1995.)

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  • Ludwig Vielfrasslerxst@az.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 11:19 PM

    @inthehands the over inflated timeline for experience is also nothing new in this industry. I remember people asking for 5 years experience with AS/400 in 1991. The only people with that experience worked at IBM in Rochester, Minnesota because IBM didn’t introduce the AS/400 until 1988.

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  • The Psychotic Network Ferretnuintari@bsd.cafe
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:21 AM

    @inthehands Thanks, I needed to read this.

    Because after nearly 180 job applications over the last several months, some of which I was really qualified for, I'm coming up with six replies so far.

    3x rejections
    2x standbys
    1x we love you, but we still don't have funding

    And dead silence from the rest.

    Not gonna lie, it is really starting to get to me.

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  • Led By Gilded FoolsMHowell@kolektiva.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:43 AM

    @nuintari @inthehands Doesn't work for everyone, but have you considered working through a contract agency?
    Benefits: you get to meet lots of different types of teams to see their work flow processes, and check out the Co., before maybe going direct.

    Drawbacks: shitty benefits, usually lower pay, job churn.

    One recruiter amalgamation site I use is ContractJobHunter.com which has a feature to spam the recruiters.

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  • Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 2:18 AM

    @nuintari @inthehands in 2008 recession I was tracking for awhile and it got too demoralizing. Now it's just fire and forget. I also learned that getting excited about one and putting my eggs in one basket usually meant some combination of heartbreak/disappointment/what's wrong with me self-talk. Shits hard enough so make it easier on myself anyway I can. I didn't land a job until 2011 searching on and off but mostly on. I feel like it's way harder now than it was then.

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  • Billy SmithBillySmith@social.coop
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:50 AM

    @inthehands

    I remember seeing job listings that required 7+ years of experience in a 5-year-old programming language.

    At one meet-up, I mentioned this to someone who worked at the company, and they told me that the company's CEO was obsessed with trying to poach members of the dev team that had created the language. :D

    They also told me that same CEO was under-pricing the salaries, so no-one wanted to jump ship... 🤦

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  • Tony Hoyletony@hoyle.me.uk
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:19 AM

    @inthehands It's got worse now.. HR was bad but it's been replaced by AI. You can be rejected for a job without a human even seeing your application.

    Of course applicants are now using AI too so you've got AI applying for jobs that AI is rejecting..

    And nobody gets jobs.

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  • Tony Hoyletony@hoyle.me.uk
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:27 AM

    @inthehands Not IT but my ex wife wanted a job at a local shop. 2 hours a day sorting out the pastries, max. 10 hours a week if that, minimum wage.

    She had to create an account on a site, and fill in an application that asked all sorts of stuff about her life, including invasive questions about her parents jobs and ages, and also do a Myers Briggs personality test. And agree that they could store that data for 10 years. Took about an hour. An AI rejected the application in under a second.

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  • Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 2:22 AM

    @tony @inthehands had an old classmate that was using an AI tool to apply for jobs. He was spitting out like three thousand applications a week. Got him non-stop interviews and offers. Same reasoning as you mentioned. "If they're gonna be indiscriminately rejecting and they want numbers in their pool, I'm gonna play that game too" was his take.

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  • GrovewestGrovewest@mstdn.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 3:32 AM

    @inthehands I would add that even if you know the people everything is always on the table regardless. More often than not your dealing with strangers most who think unethical, or illegal but without consequences, is ‘just business’. Has led me to some unforgettably hilariously awkward interviews where I caught the interviewer in lies or downright crimes.

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  • jimkennedyjimkennedy@mas.to
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:55 PM

    @inthehands I think this sense of entitlement of disregarding job specs you don't meet comes with age. Back in the day I would scan job requirements looking for a reason to rule myself out and thus not apply. Now I see 'five years of FancyFramework' and apply anyway. Let them reject me - I'm not going to do it for them.

    The only objective of applying is to secure the interview.

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:59 PM

    @jimkennedy

    It does, but it also comes with (for example) social privilege. The gender divide even among my students about who needs to hear this is pretty stark; the men are far more likely to already be fudging the “year of experience” and just need the validation.

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  • PhilWillPhilWill@aus.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 9:59 PM

    @inthehands @jimkennedy
    100%, there are plenty of dunning kruger interview winners out there, I suspect mostly due to the confidence their privilege gives them

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  • Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 2:26 AM

    @jimkennedy @inthehands I was talking with my old coworker about this and how I don't apply for jobs that I don't feel I qualify for. She told me a story about how she was at a couple's dinner with her husband. One lady was saying how she really wanted a job but fell short on the experience. My friend was like oh ya that sucks. And both the men were like, "wtf just apply. I apply if the title sounds cool and that's it."

    It was then that I realized the divide and my own self-sabotage.

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  • kasperdkasperd@westergaard.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 11:01 PM

    I have personally been fighting the trend of listing required skills that are not really required. When we have been hiring I have said that we should rather have a very short list of required skills and use a wording about the following skills will be a plus for the rest of them.

    We have had many applicants who did not have nearly the skill level we were looking for. And more than once have we interviewed candidates who did not have a clue about the things they put in their CV.

    One thing that can really put me off about a candidate is when they overestimate their own skills. Maybe such a candidate is more likely to apply, but they are not likely to get the job if I am interviewing them.

    A candidate acknowledging their own limits is a quality that I appreciate, but they do also have to have some skills that we can use.

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  • Thinkaholic is 🐸 antifapooserville@dice.camp
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:02 AM

    @kasperd @inthehands A decade ago I was hiring for an entry-level tech position and I gave the HR rep a list of a couple of required skills and then eight "these would be nice to have/bonus points" skills. A week later zero resumés had crossed my desk and I called the HR rep. "Oh, we've gotten a bunch of applicants with the first couple requirements but none with all 10." I told him no more screening, just send me every resumé.

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  • sabiksabik@rants.au
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:13 AM

    @inthehands
    I'm sure hiring for "most likely to overestimate themselves" will have no long-term systemic effects 😕

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  • Led By Gilded FoolsMHowell@kolektiva.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:56 AM

    @inthehands About privilege: What I've seen is firms hire from a pool of known/people with personal references before going outside, and most of this thread is about approaching from the outside.

    That privilege pool often includes people who networked because they
    - attended the same school like MBAs from Harvard, for instance)
    - joined the same fraternity or sorority
    - whose parents belonged to a yacht club, or any kind of social club
    - etc... as the hiring manager

    My suggestion is to stop applying as the outsider, and start networking.

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  • Mortendrgroftehauge@sigmoid.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 8:51 PM

    @inthehands And apply to bad job postings! The worse the job posting, the greater your chances of landing the job.

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  • Joe Pallasjpallas@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 11:01 PM

    @inthehands I have been hired 7 times in my career. The number of times I did not have a personal connection to someone on the inside (sometimes the hiring manager themselves) was zero.

    One side effect is that I’ve internalized the idea that “I don’t interview well,” because I don’t otherwise get offers for jobs I think I’m qualified for. And twice that I know of I was being rejected and got reconsidered because of the personal connection.

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  • Paul Cantrellinthehands@hachyderm.io
    Jun 28, 2026, 11:20 PM

    @jpallas I think most people’s careers asymptotically approach this state as they go on. I don’t think I’ve been hired for a job or even a contract without some kind of personal connection or referral in this century.

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  • Avi Rappoport (avirr)avirr@sfba.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:29 AM

    @inthehands One of the great blessings of open source — for a while — was that people could just start analyzing and writing code, and other people could evaluate them on what they actually did.

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  • Michael J. Coffeymichaelc@scholar.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 7:54 PM

    @inthehands I've seen HR folks who all "know someone who has done this but they absolutely shouldn't because it's illegal to discriminate" that use tricks like promoting the idea that to get around ageist hiring bias you leave off graduation dates and only list things you've done in the last 10-15 years.

    ...and then they only consider resumes that *include* graduation dates. Which isn't illegal.

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  • Greg Whiteheadgrwster@mastodon.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 8:01 PM

    @inthehands Great thread! Another thing that happens is that some jobs, for legal reasons, are required to be advertised even if you have already identified the person you want to hire, and so there’s a game of writing a job description that fits this person and no other. I hate both sides of the hiring process

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  • cratermooncratermoon@zirk.us
    Jun 28, 2026, 8:08 PM

    @grwster @inthehands I interviewed for a position like that. I happened to have been a contract developer on the original project some years ago, and the posting listed some things that only people who had worked on it would know. I got the interview, but it was very perfunctory.

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  • Dr. Jim EllsworthEINS_Institute@infosec.exchange
    Jun 28, 2026, 8:19 PM

    @grwster @inthehands This is basically my world, post-retirement. Nobody actually has a job vacancy lying around for somebody with experience as an Intelligence general and a Ph.D. & established record of scholarship and international professional leadership in learning systems design, who has served for a decade or more in the rank of Full Professor at an accredited college or university 😅 so if they want to hire me they have to CREATE one--and it has to look that ridiculously specific so that after all that work they aren't staring down another applicant who couldn't do the specific thing they did it all for.

    My suspicion: if the job announcement looks like a unicorn, its likely to be a situation like that. Of course that's a different matter from the OP's example of 10 years experience on a platform that's existed for 1 🤣

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  • Donald Balldonaldball@triangletoot.party
    Jun 28, 2026, 8:16 PM

    @inthehands Also – even in the time before llms, a solid idk 20% of job postings were either zombies, resume bait, or pro forma because a candidate was already chosen. It’s even worse now with all the scams and with employers thinking they hold all the cards.

    When you apply and are summarily rejected, or are ghosted – do NOT take it personally. There’s literally nothing you could have done differently to get a better outcome.

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  • NetravenNetraven@hear-me.social
    Jun 28, 2026, 11:16 PM

    @donaldball I find only showing up in person and then inquiring about the jobs in question in order to find out who to actually talk to learn more… or by selling my skills as to what I can do for companies after researching them and understanding my market and what people aren’t doing that they could be. I try to sell myself as the expert at anything no one else wants to do. It takes some knowledge about your potential employer, however.

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  • Billy SmithBillySmith@social.coop
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:55 AM

    @Netraven @donaldball
    @inthehands

    I was also finding out about the relevant local meet-up's for the technologies that the companies are using.

    There's a good chance that employee's from those companies will be there, which means that you can get a personal recc to the hiring manager, which can bypass the HR filter. :D

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  • Billy SmithBillySmith@social.coop
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:00 AM

    @donaldball @inthehands

    There was one college where I did agency teaching work, and my line manager told me to apply for the fulltime post that had been advertised, as I was guaranteed to get the job.

    When I went there for the interviews, I felt sick looking at the other applicants who were all looking hopeful, as this was their "first interviews in ages"... :|

    I ended up recommending the agency to some of them, but I only lasted a year before I left. That form of nepotism should have been a red flag for all of the other BS that was going on... :|

    The day I quit was the day a weight left my shoulders... :D

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  • Rob Isaacrmi@cloudisland.nz
    Jun 28, 2026, 9:29 PM

    @inthehands This solid gold series of posts on this topic should be a one page web site with a catchy domain name so we can all send it to people experiencing despair.

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