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  • mhoyemhoye@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:15 PM

    This is a valid point, but the other side of that coin seems to be that - despite an incredible amount of work done on containerization and rapid deployment services - "click to stand up your own services" startups just... don't seem to succeed, at least not in any everything-you-need-on-one-unified-host way. The last company I saw trying to make click-to-deploy unified self-hosting work was Sandstorm.io, that became Sandstorm.org, that ... doesn't get a lot of traction.

    hachyderm.io/@akareilly/116855

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Replies

  • mhoyemhoye@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:20 PM

    I think the biggest blind spot in FOSS is that for most people most of the time, computers aren't liberating or empowering at all, they're just in the way. They're an unwanted layer of complexity that's been forced into the gap between them and whatever they're trying to get done.

    We've had a chance to microdose on that experience with the proliferation of silly IoT widgets - wtf is this, why is there a computer here I'm trying to make toast - but IMO haven't really absorbed the core lesson.

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  • Lincoln Russelllinc@phpc.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:24 PM

    @mhoye I had a college roommate who simply put his computer in a box every summer and unboxed it again in the fall. He couldn't fathom why he'd use it when he didn't need it for school work, and this was just before smart phones.

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  • mhoyemhoye@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:30 PM

    @linc I'm going to guess that the difference between you and him was a community, right? You had a community on the far side of the computer and he didn't. For you it was a social conduit; for him, it was just a tool.

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  • richhrichh@cupoftea.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 10:37 PM

    @mhoye @linc Not OP, could have been. But people tinkered and built stuff with computers before they were networked or online communities existed.

    For some people, a computer is/was a jumped up word processor with email. If you aren’t writing papers or managing correspondence, you go off and hang out with friends or practice your hobby(ies) - sport, model UN, woodworking, model railroads, music. Whatevs. If you’re spending an evening building packages, that’s an evening not doing the thing you’re trying to achieve. The computer is obstructing you rather than enabling.

    There was a time when computers involved IRL clubs and gatherings. Still can with Maker Spaces, but computer clubs and user groups don’t really exist as such any more - certainly not the way they did in the 1970s or 80s.

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  • Michael BaconMichaelTBacon@social.coop
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:34 PM

    @mhoye

    +1 to this. I think the lesson from Apple and Android that FOSS keeps resolutely not learning is that when most people sit down at or pull out a computer, they're not thinking, "I want to do computer!" They're wanting to do something the computer is the means to.

    I think one of the core problems that underlies all of the tech enterprise is that computers can do lots and lots of things but making them do that well and consistently is very labor intensive. Figuring out some way to extract enough value (or fund with other efforts) to make those expenditures worthwhile is like 80% of the problem in trying to make a tech business work. The tech part is almost secondary once you figure that out.

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  • Callista Gravescsgraves@turtleisland.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 2:24 PM

    @MichaelTBacon @mhoye the thing is, though, as I use my newer ipad pro mainly, because my macbook is from 2015 and I cannot afford a new one, Apple makes it difficult to just use your computer your way. And quite a few linux distros do it now too. Look, I don't want a Nanny telling me what software I should install and from where. Gatekeeper on Apple gear is the most egregious and anti-freedom bit of code I've seen in years.

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  • Michael BaconMichaelTBacon@social.coop
    Jul 3, 2026, 4:45 PM

    @csgraves @mhoye I have never loved how restricted Apple is with their OSes, but the fact is they work very, very hard to get the unnecessary bits out of the way and most people are quite happy with that. I just wish they would stash those bits somewhere that I can uncover and fiddle with them.

    I switched when OS X came out and I could get a bash shell, but as the QP says above, I'm an odd ball on that front.

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  • Walter van Holstwhvholst@eupolicy.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:36 PM

    @mhoye FOSS is by, and to a large extent also meant for, those who enjoy unraveling that complexity and bending it to their will.

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  • @dnlbrnds™dnlbrnds@social.coop
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:37 PM

    @mhoye This very demographic should grasp how technology's propagation occurred to capitalism's demand for a transparent, quantifiable playing field. "Stallman was right", meanwhile still the left wing of the military-industrial complex. @tante

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  • Deborah Preuss, pccdeborahh@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:47 PM

    @mhoye they're more than "in the way" now. They're a threat.

    I'm afraid to download some interesting #linux add-on to solve a problem … because I don't know if the app's been vetted by anyone I'd trust, whether it includes AIslop or malicious back-doors, whether it's funneling my usage stats - or, worse, my personal info - to some bad actor …

    I'm among those fearful of updates now.
    Quite a change: I enjoyed tech before, wrote & ran my websites. Now I'm just a retiree who wants safe computing.

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  • Deborah Preuss, pccdeborahh@cosocial.ca
    Jul 4, 2026, 12:16 AM

    @mirabilos @mhoye I wasn't planning to retire now. It was a combination of a lucky windfall and my disgust with the AI FOMO in my profession.

    I won't compete with chatbots for clients. After the bubble bursts, perhaos I'll start up again, who knows. But, for now, it's sucked the joy out of my business.

    The work itself remains a joy, tho! So I'll work with any clients who ask for my help 😊.

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  • Robrmcauley@famichiki.jp
    Jul 3, 2026, 10:59 PM

    @deborahh @mhoye I'm afraid of browser extension updates now.

    One of my favorites, Untrap for YouTube (which allows e.g. hiding all shorts) recently updated and asked to read and manage other extensions.

    A threat. :(

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  • eviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)eviloatmeal@ak.angelstrapped.com
    Jul 3, 2026, 2:01 PM
    @mhoye In many cases, more so even than simply being barrier between persons and their goals, computers redirect and trap persons in dead ends that they didn't want to go down in the first place.

    For example, while there are probably lots of people who find it rewarding to make tiktok videos, and lots of people who have found genuine community through being active users of tiktok, it is a system designed to trap you in an addictive loop for the purpose of selling ads. I wonder if FOSS folks who work on projects like trying to create an open alternative to tiktok are thinking about what the system is intended to do, and to what extent, and how, and why, people are finding social utility in it in spite of that, not because of it.

    Do we really want to seize the means of torment by creating and open nexus?
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  • Owenowen@mastodon.transneptune.net
    Jul 3, 2026, 2:56 PM

    @mhoye This is a critique specific to, I think, one or two generations at most, but: most people did not first experience computers as a liberatory technology for self-exploration and improvement.

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  • mhoyemhoye@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 3:05 PM

    @owen That I think is what I want to resurrect somehow. Free/OSI approaches feel like a rear guard proxy metric, not the goal.

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  • Dave bauerdavebauerart@mastodon.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 3:03 PM

    @mhoye I am an open source software developer and my major experience with computers is also the unwanted layer of friction! There was this concept of empowerment, but I guess we didn't stop anywhere along the way to evaluate who we were empowering.

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  • DavidM_yegDavidM_yeg@beige.party
    Jul 3, 2026, 4:03 PM

    @mhoye

    *Every * time* I get into my car, I curse the computer that has been forced into the gap between me and driving.

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  • Daniel GibsonDoomed_Daniel@mastodon.gamedev.place
    Jul 3, 2026, 10:16 PM

    @DavidM_yeg @mhoye
    I regularly curse at our Thermomix when I just want to run the cleaning function after finishing eating and have to wait for it to boot...
    Granted, it having software is most of its appeal, but it should be frictionless - and boot times, software updates and a touchscreen that doesn't always react like I want it to are anything but frictionless

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  • Johanna, CanCon varietyjohannab@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 5:08 PM

    @mhoye That's exactly it.

    After ~ 35 years of tech support, which means, being the person who makes computer go for the user despite a frequent complete lack of design thought when it comes to HCI, I'm half-deaf from banging that drum.

    And in the Year of our FSM 2026, we have responded to that problem by downsizing tech support, not because we've solved all the UI/UX issues but because some billionaire is claiming we no longer need either because their "AI" will do it all in a friendly voice.

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  • Johanna, CanCon varietyjohannab@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 5:13 PM

    @mhoye Nobody wants to use a computer, an app, or any bit of tech or gadget.

    We want to accomplish the things we need to do in life. Conversation. Communication. Meet up with each other. Have a meal, get some exercise.

    Sure, some of us want to tinker with hobby gadgets or code or make a model that tells us something about something we care about.

    But most of us don't have a clue about how to process wheat into a sandwich and we'd be so overwhelmed if we had to nobody could sell bread.

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  • koitakoita@rubber.social
    Jul 4, 2026, 7:49 PM

    @mhoye yeah, i use computers for things that need computers

    i shouldn't need a computer to make sausages to eat, or refrigerate my food

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  • David Huggins-Dainesdhd6@jasette.facil.services
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:22 PM

    @mhoye I wonder if this is because the people capable of developing such systems definitely won't use them (since the command line is more efficient) and thus can't adequately maintain or document them. Personally I think (for example) Yunohost is super cool but will I use it for my own projects? Probably not...

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  • SlightlyCyberpunkadmin@mastodon.slightlycyberpunk.com
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:33 PM

    @mhoye People who are using those kinds of services ARE sysadmins though, pretty much by definition!

    I do tend to think there's too much fear of the command-line in general though. Computers operate on streams of bits, making the CLI a more natural interface to work with the machine itself. And there's no standards for GUI shit. If something goes wrong I'm gonna be spending half an hour just trying to figure out where the hell this thing writes its fucking log files (assuming it writes any at all...or maybe it writes to five different places!) instead of just reading the error off the console...I don't need complex visualizations to install a piece of software, I need to give a command and get a response.

    There is still something to be said for making *good* CLI experiences though lol

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  • mhoyemhoye@cosocial.ca
    Jul 3, 2026, 1:57 PM

    @admin There's so much we could have, could still learn from the PowerShell model of the world. "Everything is a stream of text" is bullshit. Strings are bullshit.

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  • mccmcc@mastodon.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 5:52 PM

    @mhoye the other problem is the OS companies are placing barriers to deploying GUI apps so much faster than they are placing barriers to deploying command line apps

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  • richhrichh@cupoftea.social
    Jul 3, 2026, 10:31 PM

    @mhoye

    “Sandstorm.org that… doesn’t get a lot of traction”

    “To run Sandstorm, you need a 64-bit Linux server … If you don't already have somewhere to run Sandstorm, consider creating a 64-bit Debian virtual machine on your favorite cloud provider.”
    I mean, there’s your problem.
    Fundamentally, no one wants to self host. You need compute, plus a static IP and domain if you want access away from home (which people are used to with Google/Amazon Photos).
    The only way to get the general public to self host is an appliance - plug a box into the router, install an app on your device (which configures wireguard/tailscale to the server) and that’s it. That is the maximum you can ask of non-enthusiasts. The moment we ask people to fwd ports or anything else… nah. Much less “first, install docker…”. This requires consumer-proof h/w, sold by a trustable business that does support, auto-updates and stuff.
    S/w solutions are fine for the likes of us, but will never get wider traction.

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  • Tiota Sramtiotasram@kolektiva.social
    Jul 4, 2026, 8:42 AM

    @mhoye for partly this reason I'm philosophically against "hosted web service" as a design.

    There's a lot of interesting ways around "store user data on a central server to which users authenticate" and I wish there were better technical solutions out there for designing in this space.

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