Oct 15, 2026, 6:12 PMMen only please (women, please boost)
A woman you've never met before is walking past you and suddenly complains of chest pain, clutches her chest, goes down, loses consciousness. You establish she has no pulse.
Someone has fetched the AED
It has two pads that you need to position on her chest - one on her right side below the collar bone, the other on her left, just below her breast
(Please boost for coverage)
You will
Oct 16, 2026, 1:32 AMIn case a picture helps, here is the Stryker illustration of pad placement
@mloxton Is “Ask a female bystander to open her top and place the pads, providing supervision if necessary.” an option?
@mloxton You may also need to remove the bra; underwire is very dangerous with AED shock. If no pulse, her life is in *imminent* danger, puritan concerns have to be secondary.
But if others are there and can, you tell them to form a circle facing outward. And you make sure someone is calling 911 already, and you follow your training and do the job.
@mloxton And, as always, this is a good time to put out the call:
LEARN CPR AND AED
If you have already been trained, is it time to renew? The guidelines change over time.
You could save a life!
@ZenHeathen @mloxton I prefer how one of my med school classmates put it
"If it is a witnessed cardiac arrest, the person is dead. They just don't know it yet"
That classmate was also a former Canadian infantry officer, so fun coincidence
@autolycos @mloxton I prefer to think that with CPR and prompt medical attention, their chances are good.
Approximately 90% of those suffering an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest will die. (but see the figures from @mloxton ) For each minute of delay in CPR/AED survival chances decrease by 10%. Speed is of the essence.
The AED will talk you through what to do, and it will only administer a shock if the person has a shockable rhythm.
And if you are on your own - GET HELP, there is nothing as lonely or intimidating as attempting CPR/defib on your own.
@tompearce49 @ZenHeathen @mloxton 100% have died.
However, death is reversible. For a brief window. If CPR and an AED and advanced care are all applied skillfully within that window.
Problem is many women experiencing a heart attack don't exhibit the same pain in the chest sympotom as men, often we have flu like symptoms, feel sick to our stomach or heartburn, and tired.
@TrueNorthSpice @mloxton When there's no pulse, it's very serious, you can be sure.
@ZenHeathen @mloxton
Of course.
I was responding to the "she has a pain in the chest" comment.
@TrueNorthSpice @mloxton Yeah. The signs are sometimes, though not always, different than in men, and it's good to know the difference--somethimg else that professional CPR training covers.
I figured that determination was already made in the scenario, or unimportant, because enough has already happened that a pulse has been checked.
And if there's no pulse, there's no breathing, and no consciousness. Decisions have to be made quickly and decisively. And once the AED is connected, its programming will check vitals and tell you what to do.
(Shit--I just had a nightmare flash of some idiot tech bro wanting to put AI in AEDs!😮)
@ZenHeathen it's already there. How do you think they recognize a shockable rhythm?
@autolycos @TrueNorthSpice @mloxton Fibrillation vs no pulse vs normal pulse. That's *not* AI.
@ZenHeathen the AED only senses a 2 lead EKG for electrical activity. It has no capability of pulse detection @TrueNorthSpice @mloxton
@autolycos Then how is it that EKGs and AEDs have worked for decades before "AI"?
Actually, no, nevermind. I'm done with this conversation.
Oct 16, 2026, 3:11 AMDo you have any idea how many decades old the field of AI is? Seven decades!
If you're using the term "AI" only to refer to the slop machines marketed by Elon Musk and his friends, you're doing their marketing for them.
@cass @ZenHeathen Monte Carlo method better for you?
@autolycos @cass @ZenHeathen Machine learning? Anyone else remember 2015?
@arclight @autolycos @cass I'm pretty sure I clearly referred to "techbros shoving AI" into everything, which is *not* a 2015 thing.
Oct 16, 2026, 6:18 PM@arclight @autolycos @ZenHeathen
Machine Learning has been around since the 1950s. Neural nets are not new. Computing power and algorithms have improved a great deal over the years, though.
When I studied AI in college, it was seen as incredibly geeky and not very lucrative. It's like people don't remember anything that happened more than 5 years ago.
Oct 16, 2026, 12:26 AM@ZenHeathen
I've seen nothing in the literature of any actual injury due to underwire.
Have you seen any?
@mloxton I have no literature to consult. But it's been mentioned in every training session I've been in for almost twenty years.
Oct 16, 2026, 12:49 AM@ZenHeathen
I suspect it's one of "could happen" hazards rather than something that has ever
Hey @mcnado have you ever heard of injury due to an AED interacting with an underwire bra? Given how often AEDs are used in the wild, I'm guessing you should have seen this in the ER if it was a real thing
@mloxton @ZenHeathen no, but it would be hard to defibrillate with it in place. The pads are large, and placement is essentially right across the anterior chest. The energy is also going between the two pads through a path of least resistance, and an underwire typically doesn’t extend back around to where the other pad goes.
@mloxton It would be interesting to filter the answers into US/non-US.
The United States is very prudish, so many men might not open a strange woman's top even to save her life; and the United States is also very litigious, so it's not unlikely that the victim would sue a helper for saving her life.
@simon_brooke @mloxton also in France not helping someone in danger can be prosecuted.
@eowyn @simon_brooke @mloxton same for Germany. Not helping means serious trouble. AND you're protected if you injure someone while trying to help. Or break something.
And you're insured if you hurt yourself
Oct 16, 2026, 12:45 AM@simon_brooke
Yes, and my motivation was a manosphere dumbass who was doing a rage-bait video about another video in which a woman describes this scenario and explains that in the US, witnessed heart attacks in women addressed with AED at half the rate of men, partially because men here are loath to use the AED on a woman.
The rage-bait guy is making this out to be fear of being sued, which he attributes to women falsely accusing men of sexual assault.
BTW suing someone for good faith CPR or AED use is vanishingly rare in the US, and is also protected under the "Good Samaritan" laws
Oct 16, 2026, 6:37 AM@mloxton @simon_brooke I think that a key aspect, as mentioned somewhere else in the thread, is that some jurisdictions go beyond good samaritan laws, adding an explicit duty to help and/or an explicit waiver of lesser laws that are necessarily broken when responding to an emergency.
In the US, I'd routinely see emergency vehicles, full lights, sirens, and horns, stuck behind cars whose drivers don't want to cross a red light to let the emergency vehicle through.
@mloxton @simon_brooke This is an absolutely bizarre interpretation to me. I mean, *might* there be other reasons that many men would be uncomfortable about removing an unfamiliar woman's top than "oh no, she might sue me?".
FWIW: I live in a culture that is both less prudish and (much) less litigious than the US, and *I* would be uncomfortable with that. I'd do it anyway, my discomfort is overruled by potentially saving a life, but I can genuinely say that "she might sue! (if she survives)" wouldn't even make it to my top-50 concerns. I would be uncomfortable simply because it would feel like a violation of someone else's intimate boundaries, and I think that's how most more-or-less normal men would feel about it (as opposed to worrying about a weird fantasy scenario where someone sues you for saving her life).
I swear, manosphere people's opinion of men is so low that it's down there with that of 1970s TERFs.
@mloxton not too difficult to answer when living in a country where people don't sue each other over everything (shouldn't be everywhere else either, for that matter). You help people in need and deal with any potential consequences later.
Oct 16, 2026, 8:58 AMThe reason Americans sue is because they have private health insurance and astonishingly expensive health care. If an insurance company decides responsibility for an injury or illness can be blamed on somebody else, they will force their client to sue that person. People's names are on the court docket, but the litigants are the sick person's insurance vs the blamed person's insurance.
The sick or injured person could refuse to sue, but if they do so, they could lose access to further medical care and go bankrupt. Hospital treatment for a broken leg can cost as much as several months wages. Most people would rather not sue over tripping hazards, but they have no right to treatment if nobody pays.
@mloxton (oops sorry voted and am not a man ... too tired and shouldn't be trusted with words ... ignore one vote for the top option please sorry again!)
nvm: i have voted on my husband's behalf! it counts.
@mloxton Not knowing anything about AEDs, I hesitate to do anything regardless of who it is for fear of making things worse. I have no idea how to use one or how I'd react that might be helpful to anyone.
Oct 15, 2026, 11:04 PM@atomicbird Same. Apparently I chose the “wrong” option simply because I guessed incorrectly on how these devices work. Either way, I would probably read the (hopefully short and unambiguous) instructions first.
@atomicbird @mloxton I have had CPR training, and have been in the same room where an AED was used (successfully, yes it talks you through it, it was at a church benefit and the whole room went silent). I have had water lifesaving training and used it once (successfully), I have rescued a foul-hooked pelican (successfully). It is simultaneously terrifying and you do it because you must, experience says I would get that shirt open and use the AED right.
@dr2chase @atomicbird @mloxton bro angry pelicans are terrifying, I have great respect for your courage
@Linza @atomicbird @mloxton it did not feel like courage, it felt like "this must not happen". Part of water safety training, is to know when to stop, and if possible to act in a way that reduces your risk.
@atomicbird @mloxton @aijaz I'd like to encourage you to take a course in first aid. Costs about 50-100€ (in Germany, no clue about other countries) which is often covered by employers and about 8 hours of your day, often a Saturday, and you just might save a life.
I volunteer with our national disaster relief organisation so I attend these courses every 2 years due to regulations, it really doesn't hurt and it really is useful. AEDs are part of the training nowadays. (Have been for years, tbh)
@mloxton I never had EAD training so I don't know if options 2 and are OK. I would
let some elae do it while calling an ambulance. House MD does not count as rraining :)
@mloxton I'd loosen her top enought to attach the pads because I've been trained on the use of an AED and I know that the pads won't work correctly if they aren't attached to the skin.
At the same time, generally that only requires loosening the top to get to the spot needed. You can re-close her top after the electrodes are attached as the AED will tell you what it is doing.
@mloxton It's nice to see that the majority do the right thing. And aren't cowards.
@mloxton the kits I’ve seen also include a pair of scissors. You’d want to cut the bra off too (an underwire could interfere with the AED, from what I was told).
What I wish more people knew is that you don’t really need training to use them. They literally walk you through with voice instructions, and the mechanism prevents you from activating it at the wrong time.
@mloxton it feels like the alternatives are about what's "decent" as much about how to help. If I was in that situation I would tear off whatever clothes necessary to do what's needed. My problem is I have no idea if skin contact is needed or whatever. A timely reminder to actually learn these things.
@mloxton
The first option - but as a retired GP I'd have no qualms.
@mloxton @korenchkin We were trained at wirk how to give CPR to a torso with breast. You now, when they habe no pulse or don‘t breathe they‘re in the process of dying. I think they‘d rather be undressed as far as needed to save their life instead of simply dying. Anyway, in Germany you‘re protected by law when you help someone and accidentally break something or make things worse.
@MaZderMind @mloxton yeah, that was part of our training as well.
RE: https://pixelfed.social/p/stuffifound/1016591797586931393
Anecdata: I've heard of far more unreported assaults than of false accusations, roughly 15/1, & yeah, that kid grabbing yr tit in a bike-by is still SA.
I haven’t seen the full ABC for cardiac arrest posted here yet, so:
1. Check if they’re ALERT / conscious (no)
2. Shout for help.
3. Check if they’re BREATHING (note: do not check for a pulse). (no)
4. 999 -> “not breathing, [location]”
5.. Stop *catastrophic* BLEEDING (ie gushing, litres) if evident (do a *quick* check incl. underneath them)
6. CIRCULATION: chest compressions, chest compressions, chest compressions!
If you have a helper, they call 999 at step 4 and fetch an AED.
@mloxton What a creepy poll.
@mloxton So this is the sort of thing that always bugs me when it happens in a piece of fiction, somebody brought an AED but did not actually use it, just handed it to some random bystander who happens to be the protagonist. Because the plot demands that he show personal growth in being able to use the thing effectively despite his embarrassment over the potential sight of boobs.