@mloxton You may also need to remove the bra; underwire is very dangerous with AED shock. If no pulse, her life is in *imminent* danger, puritan concerns have to be secondary.
But if others are there and can, you tell them to form a circle facing outward. And you make sure someone is calling 911 already, and you follow your training and do the job.
@mloxton And, as always, this is a good time to put out the call:
LEARN CPR AND AED
If you have already been trained, is it time to renew? The guidelines change over time.
You could save a life!
@ZenHeathen @mloxton I prefer how one of my med school classmates put it
"If it is a witnessed cardiac arrest, the person is dead. They just don't know it yet"
That classmate was also a former Canadian infantry officer, so fun coincidence
@autolycos @mloxton I prefer to think that with CPR and prompt medical attention, their chances are good.
Approximately 90% of those suffering an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest will die. (but see the figures from @mloxton ) For each minute of delay in CPR/AED survival chances decrease by 10%. Speed is of the essence.
The AED will talk you through what to do, and it will only administer a shock if the person has a shockable rhythm.
And if you are on your own - GET HELP, there is nothing as lonely or intimidating as attempting CPR/defib on your own.
@tompearce49 @ZenHeathen @mloxton 100% have died.
However, death is reversible. For a brief window. If CPR and an AED and advanced care are all applied skillfully within that window.
Problem is many women experiencing a heart attack don't exhibit the same pain in the chest sympotom as men, often we have flu like symptoms, feel sick to our stomach or heartburn, and tired.
@TrueNorthSpice @mloxton When there's no pulse, it's very serious, you can be sure.
@ZenHeathen @mloxton
Of course.
I was responding to the "she has a pain in the chest" comment.
@TrueNorthSpice @mloxton Yeah. The signs are sometimes, though not always, different than in men, and it's good to know the difference--somethimg else that professional CPR training covers.
I figured that determination was already made in the scenario, or unimportant, because enough has already happened that a pulse has been checked.
And if there's no pulse, there's no breathing, and no consciousness. Decisions have to be made quickly and decisively. And once the AED is connected, its programming will check vitals and tell you what to do.
(Shit--I just had a nightmare flash of some idiot tech bro wanting to put AI in AEDs!😮)
@ZenHeathen it's already there. How do you think they recognize a shockable rhythm?
@autolycos @TrueNorthSpice @mloxton Fibrillation vs no pulse vs normal pulse. That's *not* AI.
@ZenHeathen the AED only senses a 2 lead EKG for electrical activity. It has no capability of pulse detection @TrueNorthSpice @mloxton
@autolycos Then how is it that EKGs and AEDs have worked for decades before "AI"?
Actually, no, nevermind. I'm done with this conversation.
Oct 16, 2026, 3:11 AMDo you have any idea how many decades old the field of AI is? Seven decades!
If you're using the term "AI" only to refer to the slop machines marketed by Elon Musk and his friends, you're doing their marketing for them.
@cass @ZenHeathen Monte Carlo method better for you?
@autolycos @cass @ZenHeathen Machine learning? Anyone else remember 2015?
@arclight @autolycos @cass I'm pretty sure I clearly referred to "techbros shoving AI" into everything, which is *not* a 2015 thing.
Oct 16, 2026, 6:18 PM@arclight @autolycos @ZenHeathen
Machine Learning has been around since the 1950s. Neural nets are not new. Computing power and algorithms have improved a great deal over the years, though.
When I studied AI in college, it was seen as incredibly geeky and not very lucrative. It's like people don't remember anything that happened more than 5 years ago.
Oct 16, 2026, 12:26 AM@ZenHeathen
I've seen nothing in the literature of any actual injury due to underwire.
Have you seen any?
@mloxton I have no literature to consult. But it's been mentioned in every training session I've been in for almost twenty years.
Oct 16, 2026, 12:49 AM@ZenHeathen
I suspect it's one of "could happen" hazards rather than something that has ever
Hey @mcnado have you ever heard of injury due to an AED interacting with an underwire bra? Given how often AEDs are used in the wild, I'm guessing you should have seen this in the ER if it was a real thing
@mloxton @ZenHeathen no, but it would be hard to defibrillate with it in place. The pads are large, and placement is essentially right across the anterior chest. The energy is also going between the two pads through a path of least resistance, and an underwire typically doesn’t extend back around to where the other pad goes.