I can't think of a better illustration of the fundamentally selfish, libertarian foundation of the free software movement than a GNU maintainer loudly affirming that contributions known to be produced by slave labor are welcome without reservation https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2026-11/msg00128.html
@alexandra the ultimate in "that's out of scope!" thinking
Nov 8, 2026, 2:32 PM@jplebreton @alexandra this is pure Friedman fanfiction
Nov 8, 2026, 2:33 PM@jplebreton @alexandra "freedom" is "freedom to participate in the market"
Nov 8, 2026, 2:33 PM@jplebreton @alexandra "freedom" is "freedom to git clone"
Nov 8, 2026, 2:35 PM@jplebreton @alexandra "first step towards splitting our community along the many lines of political and ideological divides" - the first step, if I may, on the Road to Serf^W Road to Slavery.
@alexandra haha what the fuck
@alexandra "The Free Software movement doesn't pursue the goal of "liberty for all humanity". If you think it does, you are gravely mistaken. Our goals are different, and are well described elsewhere."
this is a villain speech
@kyle_pegasus @alexandra and this isn't a libertarian position for sure
@dunklecat @alexandra of course it is, libertarians go back to the origin of liberalism. a person is merely property to them, and they have rights only because they own themselves. a slave has no rights because they're another's property, freeing one would be theft.
libertarians would be dangerous if not for their inability to pass themselves off as normal for long enough to convince anyone
@kyle_pegasus @alexandra what about anarchists? Where have you read about libertarian socialists pursuing a society where slavery is accepted? Pursuing a stateless society based on freedom and equity is all but a society where slavery has its place
Nov 8, 2026, 3:56 PM@dunklecat @kyle_pegasus @alexandra There is a massive difference between libertarianism and anarchism.
@fogti @kyle_pegasus @alexandra I always find myself in a difficult position, as theoretically (and even for Wikipedia) anarchism is a (sort of) subset of libertarianism. Even anarchism has been used in one way and the opposite (there are people calling themselves anarco-capitalists that is the opposite of anarchism as it should be).
Thank you for your contribution
@dunklecat @fogti @kyle_pegasus @alexandra in “ethics of liberty” murray n. rothbard explicitly endorsed slavery and ownership of children (up to and including trade in children); support for slavery is explicitly a libertarian position.
@mawhrin @fogti @kyle_pegasus @alexandra anarco-capitalist according to wikipedia, yep. It's not a strictly libertarian position, more of a capitalist one
Nov 8, 2026, 3:22 PM@kyle_pegasus @alexandra I wish the @fsfe would make a public statement about this horrible take and where it stands regarding it. I want a free software movement I can be proud of being a part of, and this is not it.
@kyle_pegasus @alexandra If your rules lead you to side against human liberation, burn the rules.
@kyle_pegasus @alexandra I think we've had two centuries of hard lessons about the inadequacies of strictly deontological ethics, but some people have kept doubling down on it, beyond the point of absurdity.
@foolishowl @kyle_pegasus @alexandra
This sentence works with the word 'utilitarian' too, and whilst the time period may be shorter, it has been much more grievous.
Like how apparently okay to book the ocean to build the machine god, because, ...uh, it's not clear, it's not built yet.
So maybe the problem is strictness rather than deontology.
Nov 8, 2026, 5:50 PM> in the Free Software movement, we only deal with evil that directly affects or threatens software freedoms
this is the line that got me
'software freedoms' has such a cop-tense ("man shot in altercation with police officer") feel to it. the idea that freedoms are detachable from people
@rdp @kyle_pegasus @alexandra Apart from *gestures at everything*...
Slavery is absolutely relevant to software freedoms. Enslaved people are not free to run programs on their machine for any purpose, modify source code, or distribute copies of their modified versions.
The FSF is very concerned about a software corporation preventing people exercising those freedoms, but not about slavers doing the same?
Nov 8, 2026, 6:25 PM@robinadams @kyle_pegasus @alexandra
i am not sure i fully understand, so please forgive me if i am misinterpreting your post
to put my thoughts another way, i don't think the people talking about 'software freedoms' consider people at all
i think they have a kind of inside-out version of hoarding; where more is alway better and anything that gets in the way is considered and obstacle, including people
Nov 8, 2026, 9:10 PM@rdp @robinadams @kyle_pegasus @alexandra the original intent is all about having the right to read and modify the source for software that's required to operate property we own. It was all about printer drivers originally. I don't think it's unreasonable to demand the right to read and control the software in our cars, phones, PCs, watches, whatever other appliances.
I also don't think it's unreasonable to pick your battles. There's far more closed blackboxes in our lives than open.
Nov 8, 2026, 9:12 PM@rdp @robinadams @kyle_pegasus @alexandra they already have far more work cut out for them than they have capacity for.
The right to actually own our digital property and not just perpetually rent it is an important right in modern society. You may not think it's as important as freedom from persecution or freedom from slavery. But yes, there are already other organizations dedicated to fighting those human rights abuses. The FSF doesn't need to duplicate their work.
@hyc @rdp @robinadams @kyle_pegasus @alexandra it needs to INCORPORATE that work and integrate their findings into its worldview in order to ensure that it is serving its mission, and for that it needs to take a moral stance on some things like slavery, war, etc.
If the only outcomes of the "free software movement" are that slavers are free to share & contribute to code that enables further enslavement of people, the the free software movement is pro-slavery & a net negative for humanity.
Nov 9, 2026, 1:04 AM@hyc @rdp @robinadams @kyle_pegasus @alexandra -- The principle benefit of actual Open Source Software (OSF licesed) is no actual significance of pretty much all o its users who are not qualified to either read/understand it nor maintain it on their own. It is just another black box.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. But for those who care and invest in the privileges Open Source affords it is very valuable.
@alexandra “Any other answer is a first step towards splitting our community along the many lines of political and ideological divides that have nothing to do with software freedoms.”
Wake up, Eli: the split is already happening, you have no choice except which side to stand on.
@fivetonsflax Eli is on the side of reason.
The GNU project cannot and will not exclude changes that are leaglly validly, conformant to the project goals, make sense for the package, and are/or authored by people or things you dislike.
@amszmidt @fivetonsflax @alexandra @and it’s always a good illustration of one’s character when slave labor is obscured into “things you don’t like”.
@CynAq So you think it is acceptable to check who you are, where you are from, maybe your gender, country location, if your are human or no, and based on that decide if you can contribute?
That is what the “Human” Emacs project is suggesting. _That_ is absurd, racist, misogynistic, ableist, ..
If anything, just caring about the legalese is the only sensible option.
And if the legal option is problematic, it is a far bigger problem than FOSS, or an editor.g
@amszmidt @fivetonsflax @alexandra @and holy straw man, Batman.
The issue is the normalization of rejecting contributions based on abhorrent, unethical, bigoted behavior of their authors. These are not inherent parts of someone’s identity, they are _choices_. Making choices that harm others can and should be basis to reject someone’s participation in society. That’s how societies keep collective safety.
It’s not a purity test issue. It’s a preventing the Nazi bar issue.
@CynAq holy molly, anonymous person, moving goal posts are we? *plonk*
@amszmidt @CynAq @fivetonsflax @alexandra @and attaching your name to a post that betrays you to be a ghoul is so much more shameful than being anonymous
@whitequark
Also, anonymity and pseudonymity are quite different things. I am Ozzelot, have been pretty much always, just because it's not written on any state documents does not make me not Ozzelot.
@amszmidt @CynAq @fivetonsflax @alexandra @and
@ozzelot @amszmidt @CynAq @fivetonsflax @alexandra @and yea that too! orders of magnitude more people know me as "whitequark" than "Catherine", and the former even lasted a decade longer
"oh you're anonymous" is a loser retort said when you know you have nothing to say.
@CynAq FWIW, I decided to block and report this guy rather than engage with him. I looked at his TL and I think he is just an angry troll.
@fivetonsflax yeah, I should’ve done than from the get go. Live and learn 😂
Nov 8, 2026, 7:52 AM@fivetonsflax @alexandra @and This doesn’t at least acknowledge the goals of those driving the split as a tactic
When an outside force gets involved in a civil war, it doesn’t invalidate the goals of the civil war. But it does mean you are required to understand the goals of the invader.
Free software has enemies. Those enemies are practicing strong solidarity amongst their diverse group right now. This is a bad omen, in itself.
It’s possible — not easy, just possible — to park an argument for now and spend time where it matters. For now just make a list of what you agree on and don’t agree on. Somebody will have to let something continue under protest, stating what the risks are, and allow it to continue risking.
If only we had lots of examples of assholes interfering with the creation of good code. If only it was astoundingly obvious that, even if someone only cares about software and not human beings, the logical conclusion is to exclude racists, sexists, and creeps because they never produce enough good code to make up for the people they drive away.
Or we could, regardless of whether “he does good work”, make decisions based on human rights. Because we’re humans.
@alexandra @thomholwerda
So… emacs fork incoming?
@wndxlori possibly, but largely for other reasons; see https://human-emacs.org/
@alexandra First they came for the illustrators, and I did not speak up, because that's out of scope of the Four Freedoms.
Then they came for the translators, and I did not speak up, because the Four Freedoms are politically contentious and we need total unity outside of that.
Then they came for the QA and testing volunteers, and I did not speak up, because honestly they always seemed a bit gay to me, and is that stuff really valuable like code is?
Then they came for me, and I had nobody in the 4F Big Tent with me except other people who watch Asmongold streams. Where's the unity, people?
EDIT: well there's a reply that demonstrates what GNU apologists have to offer in spaces of civil conversation. Blocked lmao
@MaddieM4 @alexandra Gonna meet with some developer peeps also all against AI tools ... sadly the only ones that I've found willing to go out of their way to do anything.
Getting my colleagues to care enough to take any risk has been a frustrating battle. Any tips? Trying to see more than the "bringing a horse to water but can't make it drink" part of this.
@wild_cube @alexandra I haven't cracked that code yet, but I think it's going to involve some form of teaching software people that they aren't as special (cased) in the labor market, and that they have things to learn from people in other jobs. Why do so many of those people have unions? Well, the good times don't last, and when they stop, you need the union to protect you! That kind of thing.
Programmers are very solitary in certain ways. I think very few of them have even imagined being part of a labor movement that is mostly non-programmers, and equalizes them with everybody else. Even the ones not trying to be assholes have done a lot of Not Thinking About Cultural Attitudes About Their Job Being Different. Being part of a journalist union was really good for me even though I already had good principles. Non-programmer peers that you recognize as peers are good for the soul.
@MaddieM4 @alexandra Hmmm maybe I need to be patient and keep networking and pushing where I can. Sweden is a bit weird, we do have the engineering unions but we also have strange stuff like the inability to picket or break "employer loyalty" by speaking badly of them.
At least of the ones I have spoken with, they want change but can't imagine how to change it. As an immigrant, I've the same problem lol
@MaddieM4 @alexandra Took a bit of a wrong turn reading this because "The Four Freedoms" is, inter alia, a set of four paintings done by the most famous American illustrator of the 20th century, Norman Rockwell.
@alexandra
Well, that's... certainly a thing to say. :neocat_scream_scared:
Nov 7, 2026, 11:40 PMThe Free Software movement doesn't pursue the goal of "liberty for all
humanity". If you think it does, you are gravely mistaken. Our goals
are different, and are well described elsewhere.
ewwwww maybe it should do that
@sinza @alexandra You couldn't ask for a more concise summary of why the movement has utterly failed. Why the entire world is being crushed under the boot of surveillance tech, and its applications in marketing, propaganda, social manipulation, and weapons systems, while one percent of the computing public plays around with their linux distros like toy trains.
@porkroll @sinza @alexandra Nailed it
@sinza
So the name of this book means nothing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software%2C_Free_Society
@alexandra
Nov 8, 2026, 12:14 PM@ozzelot Given the ridiculous attitudes on the mailing list, I expect someone to explain that title with the explanation “correlation is not causation.” They were just naming 2 nice ideals. They aren’t meant to imply a connection. 🤦🏻
@alexandra Holy fuck you can't even exaggerate the evil to make a point without techbros jumping to embrace the exaggeration.
Nov 8, 2026, 12:38 AM@alexandra that’s so weird. it’s like they’ve committed so hard to a *specific* political stance that they’ve decided they can’t possibly entertain any other political position, even ones complementary to their own
Naturally of course I imagine they don’t actually think of free software as a political movement, even though it obviously is.
Techbro moment…
@alexandra can you please reproduce the quote, i cannot load the page and i cannot see evidence of this in my copy of the thread in my email client
@alexandra i will need to take several drastic actions immediately if this is true i am genuinely asking for reproducing the quote i will not be challenging you on it at all i just cannot find it
@alexandra got it sorry https://types.pl/@132ikl/117578342949538546 this is immensely disappointing
@hipsterelectron @alexandra I'm not even able to contribute or part of this community, and I can see that this is wildly inconsistent:
"You are suggesting to subject the contributors to some examination of the principles they uphold, the ethics of their day-to-day activities, their views on matters of policy and important international events, etc."
Um, yes?
"examination of the principles they uphold" = do they uphold the principles of the fsf?
"examination of ... the ethics of their day-to-day activities" = do they abide by the terms of the relevant software licenses?
"examination of ... their views on matters of policy and important international events" = do they support policies in line with fsf goals?
But also, um, no?
The problems with incorporating LLM-generated content include not only externalities but potential future reliance on a contributor base that has lost or never gained the skills to write and evaluate code, on the degree to which the code in that codebase is or is not protected, and on the degree to which quality control processes are actually capable of ensuring quality. Those concerns have nothing to do with examining the principles, ethics, or attention to international events of the contributor.
Wow.
Nov 8, 2026, 12:55 PM@hipsterelectron @alexandra impressive shit yea?
Nov 8, 2026, 4:24 PM
@alexandra I'm trying to wrap my head around this argument (if you feel it's inappropriate, please let me know and I'll stop, don't block me!)
I have serious ethical misgivings about people who drive cars, for the very same reasons, it's unjust, violent, etc. and advocate for a fairer city. Based on this reasoning, would I also need to reject contributions from people who drive cars?