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  • Jun 2, 2026, 10:21 AM

    Intersex pride.

    Of all the letters in LGBTQI, I think Intersex people are unique in that we often get added to the rainbow by society as soon as we are born, and unlike other queer people, our families often "know" about us long before we do.

    There is a conspiracy of silence to stop intersex kids from knowing about themselves. The reason "normalizing" surgery is done early in life is precisely because the event will not be remembered. In my case, my earliest memory is recovering from such surgery. It took decades to understand what that fragmentary memory was.

    Unlike the other letters of LGBTQI, intersex conditions often come with significant medical concerns. Amongst other issues, I had an endocrine crisis leading to severe arthritis in my early years. But my doctors were so intent on bolstering my normalized identity, they could not acknowledge or treat the problem. Ultimately, I accidentally fixed myself by starting hormone therapy as part of gender affirming care.

    The origin of this medical and social control is the 1950s era anxiety that if the child has an "abnormal" body, they will grow up gay. As bizarre as it may seem, the pathologization of intersex and the resulting nonconsensual and deceptive treatments are a form of "queer prevention" therapy.

    Intersex pride is about acknowledging that bodily diversity is the real normal. Intersex pride is about demanding treatment for the real health issues and an end for nonconsensual cosmetic treatments. Intersex pride is about resisting the identity policing and secrecy that society deems "good for us".

    #pride #intersex

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Replies

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 12:23 PM

    @SecondUniverse i don't think it's that simple to only carry out procedures with consent, is it?
    Iss that what you suggest?

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  • Leelooleeloo@c.im
    Jun 2, 2026, 12:30 PM

    @chisop

    The magic words were "nonconsensual cosmetic treatments".

    If you have a point, maybe tell what it is, because your post reads like an attempt at a MAGA gotcha.

    @SecondUniverse

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:51 PM

    @leeloo @SecondUniverse i don't have a point...
    I have questions that are being answered by others and or i start to understand the post, but not really yours.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 12:54 PM

    @chisop @SecondUniverse There's an aggressivly reactive streak in online discourse here which is often difficult to deal with. People are bringing their assumptions of malice with them from other places instead of presumption of good intent. It's disappointing but inevitable. It means people jump you for imagined slights before looking for clarification. C'est la human.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:22 PM

    @chisop @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk

    Also, if someone tells their personal story to raise awareness for a problem, you can't demand solutions from them. They don't need to secretly and alone think this through in every aspect before they are allowed to openly say that there's a problem.

    And if you do only a little research on this, the current medical guidelines and medical practice (not following those guidelines), you wouldn't need to ask.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:30 PM

    @Drude @chisop my problem with this is that you are telling a human who is here looking for human insight to go ask a machine. And you're doing it rudely. You can say "I think there's folks who have discussed this extensively elsewhere, I'm not prepared to deal with that topic" without coming across like you think the person engaging with your public statement is gross for talking to you.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:38 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk @chisop

    I'm sorry it came off like that. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that someone thinks such a question would be an appropriate comment on a post sharing personal trauma. I can't see how this is the only thing that sticks to someone's mind after reading this statement. "But if we don't do it to queer people when they are newborn, when would be the appropriate time?"

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:03 PM

    @Drude @chisop you want to defend someone you see as vulnerable, and that is kind of you. But how you do things matters. Part of being ready to share your story publicly is being ready to deal with the public about it: to say no to people, to answer questions when you want to do that, to manage your own experience with the community you are sharing with. And people will ask intrusive questions! That's what they do! Some folks actually want to answer those sorts of questions. Some do not.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:06 PM

    @Drude @chisop Not everyone who asks a question sees it as rude or intrusive. You are, online, dealing with a lot of cultures, a lot of people's very different social backgrounds. "What age is ready to deal with informed consent" might be obvious to you, but for some folks, today is the first time they have thought about what that means. That's the internet.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:11 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk

    But it's a pattern. The emotional labor in those discussions is expected from the people already hurt by a topic. While the ones "just asking questions" get the benefit of the doubt.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 3:11 PM

    @Drude @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk
    "Just asking questions" is a huge red flag, if only because the one asking clearly isn't prepared to find out more on the subject and expects the person who's talking about their trauma to fill in all the gaps. I've had abuse hurled at me by a "just asking questions" for asking them not to use a deeply transphobic term while asking about trans people.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 6:17 PM

    @anarchic_teapot @Drude "someone asking questions did so maliciously" does not mean everyone asking questions is doing so maliciously. If you take that as your lesson and attack everyone asking questions, you become exactly what your malicious attackers wanted: a terrible experience for everyone interacting with you in public forums, who will perpetuate their malice long after they are gone.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 6:20 PM

    @anarchic_teapot @Drude If you are not comfortable dealing with people you do not already know and trust in public spaces, maybe you should restrict yourself posting to a smaller, more private location. Because the public online is never going to conform to your current communication preferences. Being in a public, cross-cultural space and expecting people to automatically know what you consider rude based on personal history is unrealistic.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 8:11 PM

    @Drude What response do you want here? I see options for hostile, childish, humor, and a few others.

    Which one are you looking for, and why?

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 8:18 PM

    @Drude And that's fine! What I'm asking is not for you to change your own standards! But gently saying that you might consider not trying to force others to comform to your preference. Not being snarky or policing on them. Not criticizing people at the very first question they ask.

    Don't give the people who attacked you the satisfaction of becoming what they wanted you to be.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 11:15 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk

    > "What age is ready to deal with informed consent" might be obvious to you, but

    Nice goalposts move! Very slick.

    That was not only not the original question, the original question was actually an argument not a question.

    Not sure why you're working overtime defending somebody being a dick by misrepresenting what they did to be something less objectionable than what they actually did.

    @Drude @chisop

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  • Jun 3, 2026, 6:00 AM

    @siderea @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk @Drude what can i say about your reaction...
    To me there is at least a misalignment between your bio description and your reaction.
    I ask a question in a public post where anybody can choose to reply or not.
    If that is kind of a dick to you, well ok, see my first line here.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:39 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk The first question was very confrontative: ”i don't think it's that simple to only carry out procedures with consent, is it?
    Iss that what you suggest?”

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:11 PM

    @ahltorp yes, and it's a *great* time to talk about what the best, safest, most ethical practices are, and educate someone who left an opening to be educated.

    If they are arguing in bad faith, that usually shows up by the second or third question. But the first question is going to be the same whether they're bad faith or just new.

    If you treat everyone like an enemy from the start, you lose the right to complain about the result. And it's the exact result bad faith arguers want.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:22 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk And who treated them as an enemy from the start?

    The only strongly negative reaction I saw was basically "if you say A, you will be perceived in B way, please explain what you really meant", in a way that was less confrontative than the original reply.

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  • Leelooleeloo@c.im
    Jun 2, 2026, 2:28 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk @ahltorp
    Being new does not excuse hiding what one is trying to say, as if preparing a gotcha. Some people do - even when they are new - tell what they are curious about or what their point is, etc.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 6:22 PM

    @leeloo @ahltorp and some people are speaking English as a second language and some people are tired and some people have me talking ill esses and some people were raised by assholes but are trying to learn using the only language they know and some people are genuinely trolls and some people are very very literal about everything and some people are poets. The world is big.

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  • Jun 4, 2026, 12:49 PM

    @leeloo @ahltorp Where, here, is the gotcha question ? I just don't see it. I see a question, but characterizing it maliciously seems like an extreme over reaction to me.

    Maybe find someone in your offline life who is likely to give you an unbiased take on this, and talk through this thread with them.

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  • Jun 4, 2026, 1:02 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk @leeloo Even if something isn't meant as a gotcha question, if it looks identical to a gotcha question, it does harm in the same way as a gotcha question.

    Subjecting victims to microagressions might not be intentional, but it is still something that should be called out.

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  • Jun 4, 2026, 1:08 PM

    @ahltorp @leeloo I struggle to see the harm in questions. You are ALWAYS free to ignore them. And that's fine! Actively attacking people asking questions seems to me to do a LOT more harm, overall. It's a terrible thing, to attack people for asking questions. If someone is a troll, ignoring them is far more frustrating to them than being yelled at.

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  • Jun 4, 2026, 1:56 PM

    @ahltorp ....do you not know how to use the block and report buttons?

    "It is ok to preemptively bully people who ask questions I think are in bad faith" is how you end up bullying a LOT of people asking questions in good faith. The main outcome is that you become a bully with a shitty justification for your desperate need to feel like you did something.

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  • Leelooleeloo@c.im
    Jun 4, 2026, 1:15 PM

    @SomeVeganCheeseIsOk @ahltorp
    If the person is genuinely confused why we shouldn't do cosmetic surgery on people without their consent, fine, but maybe the fediverse is not the place to have basic consent explained.

    However, they left out the word "cosmetic" as if they were preparing some maga-style gotcha conflating cosmetic and lifesaving surgery.

    This may be an outlier, but I believe there are way more maga/afd/queerphobes in this world than people who managed to grow up without ever learning that you can't just go around harming other people uf you feel like it, so statistically, the gotcha explanation is more likely. And when I then started asking questions without taking the bait, he deflected exactly like a maga troll would.

    I've seen them before, I've tried talking sense into them (never successfully), and this question looked exactly like one of them. Yes, there are other possible explanations, but statistically...

    Meanwhile, this discussion has managed to attract actual trolls, so keeping my guard up was not without reason.

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  • Jun 4, 2026, 1:59 PM

    @leeloo @ahltorp thank you for taking the time to actually answer. My perspective here is that all questions must be treated like they are genuine until someone refuses to use logic or learn. The reason is one I noted elsewhere: it's way, way too easy to get in bad habits of assuming malice and preemptively bullying people for asking questions. Our judgement is not infallable. A *safe* way to not hurt the innocent is to block or ignore questions you aren't sure of.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 12:58 PM

    @chisop @SecondUniverse realistically, age of consent varies slightly from person to person; so to avoid getting bogged down measuring everyone, society has chosen a fairly safe age of around 18-21 for most definitions of "informed consent". By that age it's presumed you understand enough to take responsibility for steering your own life. Realistically, your ability to handle things will still depend on your biology and upbringing.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:01 PM

    @chisop there are various medical standards around when preteens and teens can give informed consent. There is no medical need to do cosmetic surgeries on newborns. Please be aware that cosmetic surgeries are not superficial and harmless - they can cause lifelong complications. They also may be contrary to the wishes of the patient when they are old enough to express their feelings.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:13 PM

    @SecondUniverse i get it. (I think)
    Are there pure cosmetic surgery done at a young age or is there also a thin line between necessary medical treatments and pure cosmetics?
    Or in case of a doubt, wait to get a consent?

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 1:38 PM

    @chisop @SecondUniverse modifying a baby's genitals because they "look weird" is purely cosmetic and can cause serious issues later because they're not fully developed and they have to grow with that scar tissue. There are a few serious issues that do need correction like lacking an opening to the urethra, but otherwise it's better to wait and let the child decide what they want to do when they're old enough to understand.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 3:16 PM

    @chisop @SecondUniverse that's what Gillick competence is modelling. In the UK someone age 16 is presumed to be able to consent to medical treatment, and below that it's a sliding scale related to “if and when the child achieves sufficient understanding and intelligence to understand fully what is proposed”.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 5:25 PM

    @amyworrall @SecondUniverse probably. My personal opinion and concent was not at all developed at the age of 16...
    Imagine i would place a tatoo... The act not even comparable, but just as an example for the state of mind at 16

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 7:21 PM

    @chisop @amyworrall Young people do face serious life choices and can do so responsibly. I think the real problem is whether a young person is truly given a voice or they are subject to heavy pressure from medics and family members.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 7:34 PM

    @chisop @amyworrall @SecondUniverse tattoos are a matter of taste, which naturally migrates over time. Easy to regret. Asking a 16 year old if they have a sense of their gender is likely to get a more concrete answer and most teens would want a strong voice in such decisions.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 10:10 PM

    @chisop
    Intersex people can have physical characteristics of both male and female bodies. Cosmetic surgery can make the person look like a single sex. The best time to do that is when the person has decided for themself whether they are male or female or both or neither, and whether they actually want surgery (so when they are an older child or teenager or adult). Unfortunately the surgery is often done on a baby. If, for example, the surgery makes the baby look like a girl but he grows up feeling that he's a boy, then that's devastating.

    @SecondUniverse

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:35 PM

    @SecondUniverse

    Forgive me for putting a slight spin on this. I fell down some steps in hospital when visiting it for a different purpose when I was three. I caught my cheek on a small stool and needed three stitches, so thankfully I was already in a hospital! However, I was awake through most of that surgical procedure, seeing the surgeon bend over my face and feeling the pain of the needle placing those stitches. It haunted me for many years. My point being: my family trivialised it.

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  • Jun 2, 2026, 2:41 PM

    @SecondUniverse

    [Continued] That kind of trivialisation or playing down alone might cause years of psychological trauma, apart from the actual trauma. The only way my fall was ever brought up was around the slight scar on my cheek that kept reminding my family of what had happened, and I never even got a chance to explain the problems experiencing surgery while aware caused me. This is just a side note, not trying to trivialise anything you said.

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