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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:01 AM

    Between all these things you learned Flash, which was a wonderful bit of software that let you make ANYTHING, and you also learned cascading style sheets, which, I cannot stress this enough, were complete fucking dogshit.

    Like, it's good today, it's normal today, it's the standard way of doing things today - but back then, it sucked so hard that web designers with a decade of experience would crank out articles about trying to achieve "the Holy Grail of web design," which was three columns, a header, and a footer, with stuff in the middle bit and links in the left bit and maybe some other links in the right bit, that didn't fuck up in some hilarious or obscure way. Shit that was trivial and intuitive with tables, but absolutely fucking impossible with CSS.

    It made everything harder, and it would be over a DECADE before anything got easier.

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Replies

  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:06 AM

    During this time, web editors like Frontpage and Dreamweaver just outright fucking gave up. You don't drag and drop anymore, you don't highlight text and ctrl-I for italics anymore, it's all code, except instead of <i> for italics it's <em> now.

    What does <em> do? It adds emphasis. How does it add emphasis? By making the text italic. It's this way because you might not want your emphasized text to be italic, you might want it to have a drop shadow or be bright red or some shit like that, and the idea of divorcing the content from the presentation was kinda the Whole Deal of CSS, so that kiiiinda makes sense, in the way that a lot of early CSS kiiiiinda made sense

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:08 AM

    You validate your site's valid HTML with some bastard online tool because you've seen the badges on other sites saying "Valid XHTML!" like it matters. You spend some evenings cleaning up your old websites so that they pass the validation and you can get that badge and display it proudly on your site. After you've spent fucking hours doing so, your site looks and loads absolutely identically to how it did before, but now you're part of a club of people who are Doing It Properly

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:09 AM

    The thing that constantly nags at the back of your mind is that nobody cares about the difference between tables and CSS except **other web designers,** and Absolutely Nobody cares what web designers think, you should know, you've been doing it as a full time job for several years at this point

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:18 AM

    You play some Flash games, that's fun. You MAKE some Flash games, that's even more fun. See, Flash was a drawing and animation app made for artists who wanted to fuck around and make cartoons, which means they made it so simple that anybody could get to grips with it and start making animations within two cups of tea, but then someone at the lab tripped over his sideburns and spilled a cauldron of programming language into it, and then you could program Whole Ass Games in it

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:21 AM

    The whole CSS thing was a huge mess but that CSS Zen Garden website was trying its best to sort of explain its benefits and you were just starting to come around to this new, worse, more complicated way of doing things that might nonetheless let you do some neat tricks (although not as cool as flash obvs)

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:24 AM

    So there was this weird situation where the Open Standard, the libre open source shit, the anyone-can-make-it-in-notepad shit, was the realm of very boring websites, and the proprietary, locked-down, $600 to get started software was where art met anarchy. The proper fun, the proper expression of humanity and experimentation with interactive web content and making not just new stories but new ways to tell them, was happening in Flash, which was being bought out by giant evil megacorp inc.

    The reason for this is two things, first Flash was WAY easier, and second my friend with a tarp full of CD-R's from earlier in the thread

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:33 AM

    Early smartphones were coming online around about then, and they weren't so hot with the whole flash thing. Like, it'd work, kinda, you'd miss out on all the cool rollover effects because you had to poke the screen with a little stick and it was just a resistive touchscreen, it didn't know you were hovering the stick over the screen.

    For example, say you'd made a website for a local club of friendly motorcycle gentlemen whose navigation menu was a series of steel plates overlaid against the backdrop of a beating heart that was also a V8 engine. As you moved your mouse over the links, each link would rust over, the heart would rev up and get excited, and then when you actually clicked on a link, the whole thing would explode. On a smartphone, the engine heart wouldn't rev up, it'd just explode for seemingly no reason. But, y'know, it worked, we could make it work, and motorcycle gentlemen don't need no fucking professional white background with a pale blue header y'know

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:37 AM

    This needs to be a blog post, this really needs to be a blog post, I spaffed out the first post in the thread off the top of my head and then went and had dinner and fucked around a bit and then came back and carried on and didn't notice that the first post was blowing up

    Anyway then the iphone came out and fucked everything up

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:49 AM

    See the iPhone was fucking shit compared to other smartphones at the time, like it was YEARS behind, but apple did that thing where, like, remember how they did it with MP3 players? Instead of saying stuff like "four gigs of space, six hour battery life" they said "A thousand songs in your pocket and you don't have to fuck around with CDs," while all the other MP3 player makers were fighting over people who already knew about MP3 players, apple targeted people who'd never used an MP3 player before, and that's what they did with their smartphone.

    Anyway it didn't have a keyboard, it couldn't do flash, and you couldn't even copy and paste on the fucker but it sold like buggery because the adverts didn't say shit like "600mHz processor and 256 megs of RAM," they said "The internet in your pocket."

    Now you can't make just one website anymore, you have to make two websites, and suddenly the point of all this CSS stuff becomes clear

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:00 AM

    So now you're making two websites, one for proper computers and one for shitty little three-inch screens.

    This is the point where, let's be honest, most folk check the fuck out. Myspace is a thing now, livejournal is a thing now, if you <tr><td>'d your way into one website and it took you fucking ages you sure as fuck weren't gonna make two unless you understand that fancy new CSS shit.

    I understood that fancy new CSS shit. But fucking hell, even at the time I knew, despite how AAALLLLL the websites about making websites had been banging on about CSS for ages, despite how all the bloggers were saying hey look this is definitely the way forward, I knew that knowing how to use CSS for layout put me in an EXTREME minority. The web wasn't for quiet uncles or excitable kids with a pirated copy of dreamweaver off the tarp outside the Manchester computer fair anymore, it was for fucking nerds with notepad++ who'd gotten interested in web standards. It was for people like me.

    I'm not fond of people like me

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:03 AM

    The barrier to entry was raised, is the point, the internet became five shit websites posting screenshots of the other four because the technical barrier to entry was raised, from "Find a guy outside a computer market and pay him a fiver" to "Learn to code. Also learn to code two websites for every one website. Actually four websites now because dark mode."

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:13 AM

    But here's the thing. I made money making websites. I suspect a lot of people here, on this most nerdiest of social networks, made money making websites. And for a while, there was LOTS of competition for people who wanted to make money making websites. For a while, round my way at least, people used to say "I'm a web designer" as a synonym for "I'm unemployed," 'cause any random sod who was halfway-handy with a computer could make a website and if you don't have a job then you have more time to figure out how to make websites.

    We weren't special, we were just fucking unemployed. Knowing how to use a computer and make a website wasn't something that set anyone apart in a sea of other people who figured out to make websites because they didn't have a job. You had to compete based on How Beautiful And Interesting Can You Make A Website

    (at least until websites weren't beautiful anymore)

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:19 AM

    Raising the barrier to entry wasn't just down to, like, "Oh it's because phones" or "Fucking facebook and amazon," it was us. It was, like, "See this badge that leads to a code validation page, that means I actually know what I'm doing," it was shit like saying "Domain name" instead of "Web address" and when too many people knew what a domain name was we started saying "DNS Zone," it was telling people for fuck's sake don't go giving money to folk who still make websites using pirated copies of dreamweaver, give money to me instead because I know how to make a website the Incredibly Boring way.

    Our, Nerd Fucking Desire to be Special.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:23 AM

    We made website-making harder, to show that we can do a thing that's very hard and that normal people can't do.

    Elitism. But, like, very very petty elitism.

    Making a website should be the easiest fucking thing in the world by now. There should be a program that you can use to spit out a website as easy as Word spits out words on paper, and we - us fucking foss nerds or whoever - should've made it.

    It probably would've made shit HTML code soup but so long as it worked, it wouldn't matter, nobody would care, just like nobody cared that Frontpage put out shit HTML code soup.

    Well, nobody cared except the likes of us, and look where that got us.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:26 AM

    Is there a spec yet for including a HTML page inside another HTML page, without fucking around with javascript or php or server-side includes or whatever? A thing people wanted to do on their freeserve.co.uk subdomain in 1997? Just like, <include src="navigation.html">, or is that making things too easy?

    'cause fucking hell, we don't want things to be too easy, do we

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:30 AM

    This shouldn't have been a blog post, it should've been a podcast haha, it meanders and doesn't have a point and there's a lot of growling and yelling, good thing I don't have a microphone and also know that something like 99.9% of podcasts are one episode long and this would be my episode

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:36 AM

    Anyway I see the first post of this thread is continuing to blow up 'cause of folk who didn't know it'd go to horrible uncomfortable "We blew it all up" places, I'll see if everyone's mad at me in the morning

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 12:17 PM

    It's 2026 and you're doing a thread late at night in a flow state of heightened emotion, 100mph jabbing at the keyboard, a gibbering goblin bloodshot eyes in the cold monitor light, surf the wave and thrash the keyboard no think just post

    It's 2026 and you follow the crowd to see what all the fuss is about, haha looks like someone got themselves really wound up last night - oh shit it was me

    Don't gibbering manifesto before bed kids

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:23 AM

    @ifixcoinops

    The real problem with flash, for websites, is that it doesn't handle different resolutions very easily. Which wasn't an issue when everyone was on 800x600, but explains why it started dropping off when people expected their site to work on phones, tables and desktops of different aspect ratios.

    That being said, I remember when people had entire businesses building drag and drop flash websites, before Wordpress took off.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 3:31 AM

    @ifixcoinops (side note: also around the time Evil Corp was buying out Flash, a bunch of free and/or open source tools were hitting the ecosystem to target the Flash player so technically you didn’t have to pay $600 if you were willing to go off script just a bit. It was a wild and glorious time to be making things for actual dollars too.)

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 4:53 AM

    @ifixcoinops I made it through all of that and never gave up.

    I started with HTML 3.0 in Notepad though, so I never used Dreamweaver or Frontpage, which had a side effect of making me like a cockroach they couldn't destroy.

    Also you should add in the horror of XHTML. Hoo boy. Now that was one meant to try to make everyone ragequit. I tried that one for a while and it made me see red... but I still persevered.

    Or the era where people said NO! NEVER USE PHP! CODE HTML IN PYTHON! for no reason.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 5:05 AM

    @ifixcoinops I made a website in pure HTML without js or php or CSS, all tables, buttons, all that guff, decades ago, and hosted it on angelfire. Its still out there, I guess, but ads have eaten half of it and I can't access the back end and elete the site without signing up and paying money to angelfire which, lol no,.so there it stays.

    I'm still a little proud of it tho. I really miss when you could code a website from literally nothing and 20mb was more than enough for a site

    EDIT: my bad i might have used JS for the mouseover effect on the buttons (literally swapping one image for another and then back again when the mouse comes off it). Seriously it's been years since I even LOOKED at the page. I can't even remember the URL. last time I found it again I tried to log in to delete the whole thing, but NOPE.

    So yeah. one JS element I guess. for mouseover. welp.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 10:49 AM

    @Nine @ifixcoinops to be fair 20mb is still more than enough for a site as long as you have no (large) media in it

    webp can crunch down images to mind boggling sizes much better than JPEG could, you can have a shared CSS file for the whole website, and you can fit quite a lot of HTML and text in that space

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  • patterpatterfloof@meow.social
    Jun 8, 2026, 11:13 AM

    @Nine @ifixcoinops the time when there was little enough in html it was expected that anyone could pick it up, combined with free space everywhere.

    Plus the ease & access of "view source". See something interesting on a website, you could figure out how to copy it (even if the fancy header was just a gif)

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 5:07 AM

    @ifixcoinops This. Made. My. Day. Thank you! I can see my entire career there. And the disgrunting. And the wish for things to be better *for the user* at least once.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 5:14 AM

    @ifixcoinops It really is kinda sad that it’s so freaking hard to host your own website in a way that’s not dependent on some corporation.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 5:38 AM

    @ifixcoinops
    Odd coincidence, read this after reading an article about Chris Stanford & Sylvia Spruck Wrigly.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 5:49 AM

    @ifixcoinops Brilliant thread. Here's a bit of a take on those days from a screen reader user.
    Screen reader users like me absolutely couldn't stand flash websites. If it needed flash back in 1999 or so until something like half a decade later it wasn't accessible to us at all. It never was a joy to use but at least they eventually added things to make buttons and whatnot visible to screen readers.
    Screen readers have had options to ignore tables that were just for layout purposes for decades now.
    We were probably some of the people emailing you about the crap code, no doubt because the result wasn't accessible, although to be fair I don't think there was any WCAG guidelines in 1998. If there was I absolutely bet Frontpage Express didn't comply with them. At least there's guidelines now, which would make things so much better if folk actually went and followed them.
    I dabbled with Frontpage Express but I never published anything with it..

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 6:02 AM
    @ifixcoinops Your anger is righteous, but I do think a lot just comes down much more to "because capitalism". Megacorporations steering things for their own ends has made for infertile ground for better tools, for more accessible digital worlds. The geeks certainly haven't done as much as they could have to help others, but building user-friendly tools and platforms and standards is frustrating and even doomed in a world whose metasystems actively work against those, block them, hide them from view, make it seem like the only options are technofeudalism or technoabstinance . . .

    And one result of all this is it's easier to make a website simply than it ever has been, but harder to get there. Like, one *can* just make a webpage using literally whatever text editor one is most familiar with, and I don't just mean text editor in a computer nerd vernacular, I especially mean Document Editors, be it Word or LibreOffice or Google Docs, stuff people use every day and yeah it'll save to HTML in a form that is horrifying to look at under the hood but it'll work! We have, looking at it from a slant, exactly the tooling you say we've failed to make, easy for everyone even if messy as hell.

    But the problem is that there's an enormous gulf between Having A Web Page and Putting It On The Web.

    Nearly everyone these days has some tool they're reasonably comfortable with that, though they likely don't even realize it, could let them create a webpage. And in a functioning civilization, everyone would have an easily accessible space to put those messy, self-created pages. But people don't see that they have those tools because the territory between them and having something On The Web is a confusing chaos of gatekeepers and middlemen.

    To try and pull out of a Lapsed-Trotskyist tailspin and finish my annoyingly long reply with optimism and concrete advice: those of us with the combination of drive and opportunity to be able to navigate those layers of bullshit can serve as guides and greatly help others! I've shown people tools they've found to be great reliefs from the corporate shit they thought were their only options; I've explained in sane terms the arcana; I've quickly set things up for people so that they don't have to deal with the acidic atmospheres and trap-filled labyrinths. It's hard to solve systemic problems flowing from economic structures without reworking the foundations, but we *can* each (that is, those of us in a cohort of people of a sort to even know about something called The Fediverse) fairly easily carve out better parallel worlds for at least a few others as well.

    And hey, maybe from example, maybe from the release of pressure these saner and more humane practices of digital publishing and communication create merely by existing in a world of friction and profit-driven scams and pennypinching . . . perhaps transformation will snowball! Revolutions, literal or more figurative, do tend to happen when the tension ratchets up between what is seen to be possible and the misery of What Instead Is.
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  • Jun 8, 2026, 6:31 AM

    @ifixcoinops this thread is the first thing I read this morning, while having breakfast before starting my used-to-be-fun-but-now-I'm-not-sure-anymore coding job. Ooof.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 6:46 AM

    @ifixcoinops sideway tangeant, (from someone who did start with writing tags in a texf editor and was listening to the rationale behind CSS):
    I am under the impression that static website generators that ingest Markdown and spit out stuff that you can upload on the hosting that came for free with the domain you registeted, did mostly got us "there".

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 1:39 PM

    @dryak Static site generators are still generally command line, which isn't remotely similar to a WYSIWYG program, imo. Much higher barrier to entry, even if you only use a standard template. And that's before you get to figuring out how to use git (for GitHub/GitLab pages) or Netlify.

    There is Publii, which I think is still around? GUI plus integration with free hosting. @ifixcoinops

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 7:54 PM

    @eladnarra @ifixcoinops hence the "mostly".

    Though:
    - they aren't CLI by necessity, it should be possible to wrap a nice GUI around (just like the countless existing GUI that wrap around cd burning and ripping tools, ffmpeg, etc.)
    - there *are* WISIWYG markdown editors
    - Git isn't required. Some registrars (e.g. Infomaniak) offer a tiny static website that you can SFTP into (with FileZilla) to deposit you static files.

    The building block are here.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 8:01 AM

    @ifixcoinops And there is me, back in 2021, still maintaining the website of the eingetragener Verein made by the previous guy in „Microsoft FrontPage 5.0“ with frames. Converting every page I touch from ISO-8859 to UTF-8 and every page I want to modify more deeply from FrontPage HTML to manually written HTML…

    (I only stopped because my parents stopped being active in the Verein)

    You can still do it that way. Frames never stopped working.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 10:06 AM

    @ifixcoinops Incredible thread, thank you so much, this was a terrific read.
    I feel a lot of myself in this, but as someone who never got into the code side of things, once CSS started to become popular, I checked out of making my dinky little crappy websites as it started to feel 'too hard' and I just wanted to go play video games against friends over the modem.

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  • Jun 8, 2026, 10:19 AM

    @ifixcoinops great thread Dan, I too, am full of regret for badge pride. I want to live in a retirement home full of Web 1.0 war stories

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