Oct 21, 2026, 10:04 AMToday I’m even more annoyed with railways than normal. Stupid rules (TER Grand Est), stupid manufacturers (Alstom - re. Padborg), stupid procurement (NRW Hitachi Caravaggio), stupid media (ORF), stupid passengers (on this TER).
Oct 21, 2026, 2:08 PMSo @partim what do you want to know? 🤔
Oct 21, 2026, 3:49 PMNews was released today about who will operate a slew of regional train lines in Nordrhein Westfalen - VRR here: https://www.vrr.de/aktuelles/newsroom/db-regio-und-westfalenbahn-sollen-den-zuschlag-fuer-ausgeschriebene-nahverkehrsleistungen-erhalten/
The important news: for the first time Hitachi Caravaggio EMUs have been ordered for Germany
Trenitalia calls their trains of this series “Rock” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravaggio_(train) from rock music, but I tend to think it describes the ride and the seats - rock hard
These are not nice trains. Cramped, stupid doors, weird end carriages. Not a nice choice.
Oct 21, 2026, 10:08 AM@jon 🥺
@jon i am joining that club today…
@jon what did ORF do this time?
Oct 21, 2026, 2:25 PM@jon Floor heights between driven and non-driven bogies: Is there a difference between the two ends of carriage 3/23 or 9/29?
Oct 21, 2026, 2:39 PM@partim OK, will check after it stops at… errr… Europapark, shortly! 😄 (sending greetings to @K1ngdaKa88 meanwhile)
Oct 21, 2026, 2:53 PM@partim As far as I can tell both ends of carriage 3 are the same height, I estimate something like 15cm higher than the door (that I think is 760mm), so 910mm above rail or so, maybe as much as 940mm. There are so many odd bits of ramps it is hard to say for certain, but both ends of the carriage have the same series of ramps.
@jon @partim Hilft euch evt. diese Tabelle weiter?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_RABe_501#Wagenreihung
Oct 21, 2026, 3:15 PM@wrzlbrnft @jon Nicht wirklich. Die Frage war, ob die Durchgänge über den angetriebenen Drehgestellen höher sind, weil das ganze Antriebsgeraffel ja irgendwo hin muss.
Oct 21, 2026, 3:16 PM@partim @wrzlbrnft Und das Antwort ist: nein, oder besser gesagt: wenn ja, dann nur *sehr* minimal.
Oct 21, 2026, 3:58 PM@publixpace Sure, I have taken those trains loads of times. I am not a fan!
Dead-end upper-decks are generally horrible.
The channel host was not convinced either, with its design and comfort.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:01 PM@publixpace Bear in mind the Italian ones are built for their more restrictive loading gauge (4.3m height), while theoretically the German ones could be 30cm higher. Maybe this means they can eliminate some of the cramped areas? We can hope!
Or maybe that train just was the cheapest because nobody else wants it and they had to sell it off at a discount😉.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:16 PM@publixpace @jon They definitely want a foot into the German market.
Question is: Will this be yet another Ansaldo-Breda train that performs okay on Italian railways but is an utter disaster abroad? I know what I am betting on.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:19 PM@partim @publixpace I am betting on it being horrid but reliable enough. Like the Hitachi products in the UK.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:21 PM@jon @publixpace Those aren’t Ansaldo-Breda, though. I’m not convinced Hitachi had that much positive influence on them.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:27 PM@partim @publixpace Is there anything of an AnsaldoBreda lineage running anywhere else in Europe? (Greece doesn’t count)
@jon If you count trams there are AnsaldoBreda trams in Gothenburg. @partim @publixpace
@Jonas_Bostrom @jon @partim @publixpace Metro Madrid and Metro Copenhagen (I think?) have rolling stock from AnsaldoBreda. But those are not really comparable to regular trains.
Oct 21, 2026, 6:27 PM@onterof @Jonas_Bostrom @partim @publixpace The Kbh ones have lousy build quality. The Madrid ones no idea.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:36 PM@jon @publixpace Things I can think of: the Danish IC4, the Norwegian type 72, Oslo’s SL 95 (which they finally got rid of). And of course the Fyra was supposed to.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:39 PM@partim @publixpace Those Norwegian 72 EMUs are not too bad actually, and are getting a mid-life refurbishment. So maybe it is not *always* a disaster? Maybe…?
Oct 21, 2026, 4:46 PM@jon @publixpace I seem to remember that the introduction wasn’t exactly smooth. But admittedly, that happens to more … reputable suppliers as well.
Oct 21, 2026, 4:57 PM@partim @publixpace right. But there was the idea they’d be scrapped but the series got a reprieve. Possibly because all Alstom orders are late.
Oct 21, 2026, 5:09 PMOct 21, 2026, 5:13 PMOct 21, 2026, 5:22 PM
@publixpace @jon or Hitachi has some production capacity left while Alstom, Stadler and Siemens are quite busy atm, with the first two being unable to deliver on time aswell
Oct 21, 2026, 4:18 PM@spaetzlesmasher @publixpace I reckon Siemens or Stadler could do it. Alstom at the moment you totally cannot count on. But the question is how custom this Eurocaravaggio is going to be (compared to the regular Rock).
@jon I guess I'm biased as I haven't actually ridden the Rock train, just looked at it. The entrance area and bicycle spaces looked much more sensible than any Regiolis or Regio 2N I can think of (and other options in Italy) in terms of space (I know that's not a high bar to clear). https://mastodon.social/@cycling_on_rails/117474779063845041
@cycling_on_rails the dead end upstairs bits are really unsafe. the kind of thing any woman would have stopped if they had seen it
and all of the upstairs is unsafe for me personally because i always whack my head
@bovine3dom @jon That makes sense. I guess I didn't venture upstairs as I didn't expect to find anything cycling-relevant there.
Oct 21, 2026, 6:04 PM@cycling_on_rails but the space foreseen for bikes is rather narrow. But yes, bike transport is ok.
@jon Looks like the Innotrans demo had schematics showing how to alternate the bicycle directions so the handlebars don't block each other. Then their demo e-bike was put in the wrong direction. 🤭 https://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/201803/M1081400-kopie.jpg
@jon afaik this will be the first time the Caravaggio family will be used abroad (excl. the current IC Blues tests in Greece), and the first time they'll be specced for AC. For Germany I'm mainly worried about the horribly slow door opening times... but I hope the rest of the issues will be solved in the adaptation
Oct 22, 2026, 10:54 AM@samuele963 Right. Can they get rid of the terrible sliding doors altogether? I hope they get rid of the dead end upstairs sections too.
@jon I'm not sure - I suppose they could try at least having two smaller doors like normal rather than one big one. I imagine Hitachi could adapt them a little if requested (they'll already need to adapt them for 760mm platforms and 15kV) but someone needs to actually request these changes
Oct 22, 2026, 11:19 AM@samuele963 or Hitachi needs to realise these trains won’t get more orders in Germany without some changes!