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  • Wrzlbrnftwrzlbrnft@troet.cafe
    Jun 29, 2026, 5:26 AM

    @tml Generally, I agree with you. In my case, I'm using some discounts through my daughter and will only occupy seats at short notice which would remain empty otherwise.
    If I hadn't that opportunity, I wouldn't do that kind of trips (like the Finland short trip last weekend) anyway.

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  • Wrzlbrnftwrzlbrnft@troet.cafe
    Jun 29, 2026, 5:30 AM

    @tml In other cases: SNCF, Eurostar or Renfe just aren't willing to operate a passenger-friendly railway. Nearly everytime when I'm trying to get from Switzerland to the UK or to Spain at least one train in the chain is already sold-out and SNCF is happy with that because empty seats in a TGV are evil.

    So, today I totally understand everybody who prefers travelling from Central Europe to UK or Spain / Portugal by plane instead of poorly coordinated overpriced train connections.

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  • Tor Lillqvisttml@mementomori.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 5:34 AM

    @wrzlbrnft Yes, but if an airline notices that a significant number of seats tend to remain unsold on a certain flight, they might stop flying it. The argument that a flight would be flown anyway does not fully hold water. Especially for low-cost airlines that often change their schedules on a short notice.

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  • Wrzlbrnftwrzlbrnft@troet.cafe
    Jun 29, 2026, 5:38 AM

    @tml I'm a standby / ID traveller, so the airline won't earn money with me, they rather tend to make loss when I'm travelling with them. And I'm not allowed to use low-cost airlines.

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:27 PM

    @wrzlbrnft @tml
    I'd argue that it does have a little effect (airlines wouldn't offer standby traveling if it didn't benefit them in some way, I guess) but way less than a normal ticket.

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  • Wrzlbrnftwrzlbrnft@troet.cafe
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:29 PM

    @fataqe @tml Prices are usually discounted by about 90%. I suppose if there is some benefit, it must be extremely low.

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:34 PM

    @wrzlbrnft @tml the marginal cost of your weight and wear ans tear of your seat is probably much less than 10% of the ticket price. The expensive stuff is already paid so they might as well get a couple francs for the seat that is left.

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  • Ianbestdeadends@toot.wales
    Jun 29, 2026, 6:52 PM

    @wrzlbrnft @fataqe @tml
    Sorry, if you believe you are scoring one over the airline by snagging a bargain, then they have successfully manipulated you exactly as they wished.

    An empty airline seat is a perishable good with precisely zero value the moment the door closes.

    Meanwhile the atmosphere/oceans neither know nor care how profitably the CO2 and other emissions were generated.

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 7:25 PM

    @bestdeadends
    Though I agree with you that the airline does not make a loss on the seat. Maybe that's your whole point, then we agree. Minus the brainwash allegation.

    @wrzlbrnft

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  • Ianbestdeadends@toot.wales
    Jun 29, 2026, 7:57 PM

    @fataqe
    I wouldn't personally call the finely-honed but standard marketing practices that we are routinely exposed to, "brainwashing" as such.
    But they work alarmingly well on almost all of us – I absolutely include myself (not airline loyalty schemes but others).
    If someone doesn't even consider they may be being manipulated, then they are an easy mark for a con.

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 9:20 PM

    @bestdeadends yes, manipulated, not brainwashed. I remembered wrong.

    Between 'you are being manipulated' to 'if one does not even consider one could be manipulated' - that's a big difference.
    Glad you didn't mean the first apparently.

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  • Ianbestdeadends@toot.wales
    Jun 30, 2026, 5:27 AM

    @fataqe
    Thanks for your response. I sense we interpret certain things differently.

    In my view, manipulation lies at the core of the entire advertising industry.
    Airlines advertise extensively, because what they sell is not essential.
    Bargain seat sales, standby deals, loyalty schemes are parts of that.
    Converting a one-off passenger into a repeat customer or even a loyal member is a psychological manipulation, aiming ultimately to extract cash.

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  • Ianbestdeadends@toot.wales
    Jun 29, 2026, 8:09 PM

    @fataqe
    I won't argue about small percentages, I do not have precise knowledge to offer.

    However, given the crew will fuel the plane based on passenger count and luggage/freight mass, I suspect the difference for an additional passenger is not in fact negligible.

    (And of course point made elsewhere that flights can be cancelled, or a smaller plane substituted, if too few pax book.)

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 9:14 PM

    @bestdeadends I'm actually not arguing small percentages if you look at the correct reference.
    Example: plane with 10 passengers emits 10t of co2 so to each regular passenger, 1 ton can be attributed. If one falls sick and the seat stays empty, the plane emits 9.9 tons. If a standby takes the seat last minute it emits 10 tons. So the standby person can reasonably be made responsible for 0.1t but not 1t. So the regular ticket is 10 times as bad as them.
    10 times is not a small percentage but a big difference.
    This is of course no mathematical proof. You may disagree with some assumptions but it's not small in my opinion.

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  • Ianbestdeadends@toot.wales
    Jun 30, 2026, 5:51 AM

    @fataqe
    On first principles – the only take I really have – 4 hypothetical standby/bargain pax collectively add about 600kg (1%) to the takeoff mass of a 60 tonne jet.
    The crew will load some more fuel (I have no idea how much), which will be burnt in the takeoff and climb.

    That is different from a ship/train where those standby pax would make zero difference to fuel burn.

    Hence imho, "the plane was going anyway" is not valid from an environmental perspective.

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 30, 2026, 9:42 AM

    @bestdeadends without much detailed knowledge about airplanes, I think it works roughly the same for trains, ships and planes. Most fuel/energy consumption is independent from passengers, each passenger adds a small amount to the margin.
    Maybe the margin is larger for planes because of the take-off and zero energy recuperation.

    'The plane/ship/train would have gone anyway' is always wrong in this general sense. You can make a quantitative argument however. it also does not make sense to attribute the same emission to any journey and passenger irrespective of the context.
    If a train/plane/ship goes somewhere for weekly maintenance anyway and is quite empty on that trip, I should not be attributed the same emissions as in a average journey that goes along lines of passenger demand.
    Similar thing for standby passenger.

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  • Trainfo.euinterrailinfosvenska@mastodonsweden.se
    Jun 29, 2026, 6:14 AM

    @tml Reminds me of when travel magazines like Vagabond have “train special” issues with no mention how to get from Sweden to where the train starts

    Image attached toot
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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 10:40 AM

    @tml that's a great idea in theory, but it's incredibly difficult to get out of the Iberian peninsula by train. From Portugal there's only 4 trains a day across the border to Spain, and 2 of those use a single car DMU with no air con. Then not everyone has the time to spend 3 days getting across Europe by train to start their holiday.

    Until we actually have better train connectivity in Europe, I don't think we should be judging people like this.

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 10:47 AM

    @jon @tml yeargh. So the connection between two capitals is reliant on two 77+ year old dmu... Ye gods. That's barely enough capacity to replace one flight...

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  • Sebastian Wilkensebwilken@mastodon.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 10:53 AM

    @quixoticgeek @jon @tml To be fair, you could take a bus for parts of the journey. It is not strictly necessary to take the plane.

    Besides, I think Tor was talking about different people. Die-hard train fans, who love trains, especially photographing them, but sometimes forget about actually *using* them.

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  • Jon Worthjon@gruene.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 10:55 AM

    @sebwilken @quixoticgeek @tml Sure. But the infra isn’t THAT bad. Were Renfe not such a bunch of incompetent idiots, and CP better funded, you could easily have 3x a day Lisboa - Madrid, 6h trip

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 11:30 AM

    @sebwilken @jon @tml and it could be direct. Without needing changes at entraconamento, and Badajoz.

    I have done lots of train trips in recent years and you need to be really time rich and in many cases comfortably well off to take a train. Hell just getting from Amsterdam to Paris to start a holiday is best part of €100 even months in advance, cos there's next to no interrail fairs on Thalys. And Thalys has a monopoly. I love the idea of using the trains more. But it's just not viable yet

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  • qwazixqwazix@bananachips.club
    Jun 29, 2026, 11:54 AM

    @quixoticgeek @sebwilken @jon @tml I'm on the other end of the continent and the rail network has been diminishing steadily since the 1890's. Also, I don't think we have any trains crossing the border anyway.

    It probably is half than what it was when I was a student. Sad really.

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  • Tor Lillqvisttml@mementomori.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 11:57 AM

    @qwazix @quixoticgeek @sebwilken @jon Back in the days we went by train all the way from Finland to Kalamata... (well, by ship to Stockholm first).

    But yeah, nowadays you need to start by taking a bus to the nearest station in Bulgaria. Or a boat to Italy, from where it is faster and easier to continue by rail.

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  • qwazixqwazix@bananachips.club
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:01 PM

    @tml @quixoticgeek @sebwilken @jon both the Kalamata and Pyrgos lines are now abandoned.

    The Pyrgos one seems to be abandoned for ever. The stations are now bars and restaurants.

    Also the "local" line to Lamia which was incredibly picturesque is now abandoned and the main Thessaloniki line has leas than half the trains it had.

    In a country with so many mountains it's a shame because roads are incredibly more difficult to build than rail...

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  • Megan Lynch (she/her)meganL@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:49 PM

    @qwazix I'm currently sojourning in Albania and the almost complete absence of functioning rail really makes it hard to get around in a sustainable way. It's rough on this region.

    I guess let's hope the railbiking in Greece gets people interested in maintaining the lines that remain such that eventually folks push to re-open rail lines for passenger trains.

    youtube.com/watch?v=FMFh-lssMbM

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:02 PM

    @tml @qwazix @sebwilken @jon I've done north of the artic circle in Finland to Amsterdam without flying and it was incredibly expensive, and took several days. (Train Kolari -> Helsinki, Ferry to Germany, etc...)

    I can completely understand why people fly.

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:05 PM

    @tml @qwazix @sebwilken @jon For people to stop flying, we need viable alternatives. We do not currently have viable alternatives. Being sanctimonius about it, doesn't help, it just alienates people.

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:11 PM

    @tml @qwazix @sebwilken @jon The cost of flying can go up to 2000 euro, if the alternative is a fully booked monopoly, people aren't going to take it, they are going to not travel. There are currently *NO* routes in Europe, where rail currently has the capacity to replace air travel on that route. There are 4 flights AMS-PAR a day. That's ~600 seats. Thalys doesn't have capacity for that. Thalys is a monopoly. Same is true on every other route.
    Train is not yet fully viable.

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:12 PM

    @tml @qwazix @sebwilken @jon Cool, so how does that work for rail fans who don't have the time and money to go long distances by rail? Are we to all be restricted to the railways in our backyard ?

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  • qwazixqwazix@bananachips.club
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:22 PM

    @quixoticgeek @tml @sebwilken @jon "vote with your money" is a thing but not so much as we would like.

    Try voting with your money against apple/android. Your vote will probably make zero difference. And as a computer toucher I find it extremely difficult and limiting, I can't imagine how it can be for a non computer toucher.

    The same goes for public anything. If it's actively being destroyed by capitalism, there's not much we can do via our personal choices. Which doesn't mean, we stop trying, but it's not shameful to fly once in a while for something we love or to drink coffee or...

    Now if one continuously takes a flight that has a viable rail alternative that doesn't cost twice, then yeah a little bit of frowning at them isn't out of order.

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  • Erik Sandblom 🌻eriksandblom@mastodon.green
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:29 PM

    @quixoticgeek Sure there are such routes. One single TGV Duplex has 500 seats, and two such trains can be coupled. Stockholm-Gothenburg has almost replaced air travel with more than one departure per hour and two competing operators. The trains have 300-600 seats, which is many times more than planes on the same route. And like Tor says, with some planning and investment, the trains would be even better.

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  • Quixoticgeekquixoticgeek@v.st
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:46 PM

    @eriksandblom awesome. Why is it we only have one example?

    Berlin Amsterdam gets a train every 2 hours.

    Paris Amsterdam gets a train every 2 hours, which is fully booked long in advance.

    Etc...

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  • Erik Sandblom 🌻eriksandblom@mastodon.green
    Jun 29, 2026, 1:14 PM

    @quixoticgeek I checked the timetable. It’s not as bad as you say. But I can agree that letting Eurostar merge with Thalys probably was a mistake. Aarhus-Copenhagen is another example where trains have just about taken over from airlines.

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  • arclightarclight@oldbytes.space
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:34 PM

    @tml @quixoticgeek @qwazix @sebwilken @jon Increasing the cost of flying doesn't make alternatives appear, it disproportionately hurts those who can least afford it. You start with taxing billionaires, financial firms, and corporations and then build or recover infrastructure. If that means renationalizing the rail operators, so be it. They can provide effective transit or the investors can put their money elsewhere. Then discourage transit emissions by whatever means you see fit. Because we don't care about flying per se, we care about the environmental impact of flying, right? Or do we just hate air travel?

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  • Hamish Buchananhamishb@mstdn.ca
    Jun 29, 2026, 2:43 PM

    Yes, carrots before or as well as sticks.

    At the least we should stop investing in airport and highway expansion and put that money into public transit and rail — both high speed and local.

    In the long run, we need to ask how much travel we really need and how much is manufactured or induced demand.

    @arclight @tml @quixoticgeek @qwazix @sebwilken @jon

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  • Cycling on Railscycling_on_rails@mastodon.social
    Jun 30, 2026, 7:24 AM

    @arclight @tml @quixoticgeek @qwazix @sebwilken @jon That ending cheap flights would disproportionately affect the poor is a myth.

    In France, 40% have never flown, 30% fly less than yearly (theshiftproject.org/app/upload page 18), while the top 10% earners fly 17x more than workers (page 19).

    Again in France, frequent fliers are young, urban, high earners (reseauactionclimat.org/wp-cont page 48) and the Gini inequality index of flying as a function of income has increased between 2008 and 2018 (page 49).

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  • Cycling on Railscycling_on_rails@mastodon.social
    Jun 30, 2026, 7:36 AM

    @arclight @tml @quixoticgeek @qwazix @sebwilken @jon This shouldn't come as a surprise though. You don't reduce inequalities with tax breaks (or keeping the status quo of no VAT/no kerosene tax in the flying sector): while tax breaks give the illusion of reducing the bills for the poorest, they mostly benefit the rich who consume much more, and erode the general public budget that benefits all and in particular the poorest.

    Same with tax breaks on car fuel during an oil crisis, etc.

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  • Fab Ataqefataqe@mas.to
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:25 PM

    @tml as always, trying to solve a systemic problem by appealing to one or more specific group's moral compass is not going to cut it. It works maybe as long as those people feel everyone changes their behaviour. But not for long. People compare themselves to others and don't want to miss out.

    Alternatives, taxes and regulations. Yes, this is not easy.

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  • Dominic Stuckidominicstucki@urbanists.social
    Jun 29, 2026, 12:27 PM

    @tml
    After reading the answers, I'd like to add something to Tor's original post: I think, the argument "the train takes too long, I 'have' to fly" doesn't go far enough. This discussion is about sacrificing things you like for the benefits of others. Believe me, there's a lot of pictures I'd like to take at far away places like Finland or Portugal. Very likely, I'll never get these. I don't fly, so I carefully have to choose where I spend my holidays. I simply can't make it... (1/2)

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