Replies

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  Christine Lemmer-Webbercwebber@social.coop

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:37 PM

  Btw I thought I heard @bkuhn saying (but with their post-hoc permission, naming them now to clarify) that nobody cares about attribution requirements (and particularly not enforcing them). But to me, attribution is what I care about MORE than any other licensing requirements, more than copyleft "share-alike" style provisions, etc.

  If you feel similarly, it would be good to hear on this thread. Perhaps even copying a similar notice into your project is a good idea.

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  dataramadatarama@hachyderm.io

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:42 PM

  @cwebber For my fonts (the only kind of creative work I still share), I've been using a license that is basically only about attribution. Informally: You can do whatever you want, as long as 1. you don't claim that you made my work, 2. you don't claim that I made your work.

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  _Έλλεν Εμίλια Ά. Arson ζ.fogti@chaos.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:42 PM

  @cwebber I agree. I extremely dislike copyright (and would like it to be abolished even if that makes copyleft licenses (even more) useless), but I think that attribution and often also proper citation/references is extremely important.

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:51 PM

  @fogti I care about both copyleft and attribution.

  Which is why the libre #roleplaying #game I’ve been working on for over two decades now¹² has a seven page thank you section, including four pages of attribution for artists.

  And naturally sticks to the licenses they use.

  And it’s why I make sure to only use creations under compatible licenses.

  And this is what I expect from others, too.

  ¹ https://www.1w6.org
  ² source: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/ews/browse

  @cwebber

  #rpg #gpl #1w6

  

  

  

  
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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:53 PM

  @fogti the reason why copyleft is important is that there are technical means to make it neigh impossible to create derivative works.

  Abolishing copyright would therefore require to have a rule that every creation has to be accompanied with the preferred form to make modifications to it.

  @cwebber

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  _Έλλεν Εμίλια Ά. Arson ζ.fogti@chaos.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:19 PM

  @ArneBab Calling a set of laws technical (in contrast to what it imo actually is: a social technology) when the only way it can be enacted (e.g. in contrast to cryptography) is through courts, seems absurd to me.

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:29 PM

  @fogti I’m not talking about laws. See https://rollenspiel.social/@ArneBab/117441148957636180

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  _Έλλεν Εμίλια Ά. Arson ζ.fogti@chaos.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:37 PM

  @ArneBab Having source available is neither sufficient (although/especially lack of attribution makes it worse), nor necessary (due to the ability to disassemble code).

  And given that the "open source" is very often still based upon paywalled papers and standards, and often also hidden documentation (/ documentation licensed in a way that makes usage in source code difficult), I don't consider it sufficient anymore. It isn't sufficiently pervasive.

  Source code is an intermediate representation

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:39 PM

  @fogti I disagree.

  Having the source available may not be sufficient, but it is often necessary.

  Disassembling code does not recover comments and also misses a lot of other context.

  But I gave that argument in a more general way in the other toot:
  https://rollenspiel.social/@ArneBab/117441148957636180

  Source code is the preferred form of making modifications to something – as the GPLv3 succinctly defines it.

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  Luna Dragofelis ΘΔ🏳️‍⚧️🐱LunaDragofelis@void.lgbt

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:23 PM

  @ArneBab @fogti @cwebber yeah, but without copyright it would also be very much legal to crack the DRM and distribute the cracked version
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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:28 PM

  @LunaDragofelis This is not about DRM. It is about only sharing obfuscated, compiled code that you may be able to mod, but not to improve efficiently.

  Or only sharing a squashed image while you yourself use the multilayer source instead that you did not share.

  Or only sharing the final encoded version of a song while you retain the multitrack master to rework it regularly.

  Or only sharing low-quality screenshots of a book you create from Emacs orgmode sources you keep private.
  @fogti @cwebber

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 18, 2026, 1:15 PM

  @ArneBab That looks interesting, but I can't clone any of those pages.

  Has this happened before?

  git clone 'https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake'
  fatal: repository 'https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake/' not found

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 18, 2026, 2:48 PM

  @malin Those are Mercurial repositories, not Git repositories.

  ⇒ hg clone 'https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake'

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 6:12 AM

  @malin did the cloning with Mercurial work?

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 6:32 AM

  @ArneBab
  I've never touched it. But it looks similar to git so maybe now's the time.

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 3:15 PM

  @ArneBab
  It works. Never heard of Guile, but I've installed it, and now there's a dryad in the garden.

  From the 1w6 link in your bio, I thought it was a tabletop game.

  The Zettel-RPG looks interesting. Shame I can't read German.

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 3:30 PM

  @malin I’m glad to hear that!

  1w6 *is* a tabletop game, but there’s this computer RPG version, too :-)

  I hope you have fun!
  (though it’s still short – I’ve been planning to continue it for years, but the social interaction in the village gathering threw me straight into writer’s block, and I have not yet managed to break through).

  There’s a short English version of the rules, though with a quite heavy plot and the previous revision of the rules (from 2013):
  https://www.1w6.org/english/flyerbook-rules

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:11 PM

  @ArneBab Nice!

  Is there a repository link for it? I have a little showcase of libre RPG resources.

  gemini://ttrpgs.com/placard/index.gmi

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:13 PM

  @ArneBab
  Also, 'snap!'. BIND has booklets, with the basic rules translated into German, courtesy of @Anth0rx

  https://bindrpg.itch.io/rules

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:17 PM

  @malin I should really translate the flyer-RPG:

  science-fiction: https://www.1w6.org/deutsch/regeln/flyerbuecher/12x-flyer-grt2024
  fantasy: https://www.1w6.org/flyer (already 15 years old … time flies)

  A single flyer with rules, example characters, and a 2 hour adventure.

  That said: love seeing more free licensed RPGs for the pocket!
  @Anth0rx

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:23 PM

  @ArneBab Looks fancy. We're still in the primitive lands of bind-it-yourself (with FLOSS).

  Check the starter packs on itch for more wallet-sized booklets.
  @Anth0rx

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:28 PM

  @malin I had to go for something that’s easy to print for the German free rpg day.

  Folding 2000 Flyers myself wasn’t manageable anymore :-)
  (200 locations, 10 flyers each, costs around 240 Euro including test print – financed via crowdfunding)

  I used: https://www.wir-machen-druck.de/faltblatt-gefalzt-auf-din-lang-vertikaler-zickzackfalz-12seitig.html

  With the scribus file: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/ews/browse/Flyerbooks/flyer-technophob-12x.sla?rev=tip

  (as PDF: https://www.1w6.org/files/flyer-technophob-12x-wir-machen-druck.pdf )
  @Anth0rx

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:41 PM

  @ArneBab
  That's a serious print run. I just keep mine to one sheet of A4 per booklet. Binding requires two stitches per booklet. When there's a lot to do, it becomes 'audience participation' (which is a nice way of saying 'sweatshop for nerds').
  @Anth0rx

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 5:11 PM

  @malin having a group that does that stitching together sounds great!

  That said: it’s crazy how cheap it is nowadays to print flyers if you need sufficient numbers for offset printing.

  Or printing in general: when printing 250 books, 480 page-books cost only 3 Euro per book.

  (but for that to work out, you need people who are sure to take them: you don’t want 200 books lying at home, taking up space, and getting destroyed by dust and time)
  @Anth0rx

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  Malinmalin@dice.camp

  Oct 19, 2026, 5:27 PM

  @ArneBab
  I've gone fully PiY. People can print their own. Even a hardback is only like 8 Euros at a print shop.

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:14 PM

  @malin Yes: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/ews

  A Mercurial repository, licenses: cc by-sa and GPLv3+ (my rule is: must be compatible to AGPLv3 – v3 or later isn’t possible, because the compatibility of cc by-sa for "or later" is contingent on creativecommons as steward accepting the later version).

  EDIT: but I allow GPLv3 *or later* for my parts.

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 19, 2026, 4:24 PM

  @malin PS: the english flyerbook rules are only on the website.

  I should format that as a flyer, now that I have the nicely usable scribus template from the science fiction flyer …

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  Nora Tindallnoracodes@tenforward.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:43 PM

  @cwebber I absolutely agree.

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  Nantucket Litnantucketlit@mastodon.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:45 PM

  @cwebber What I've found, at least in writing, is that people want to be recognized for what they've made, and properly credited.

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  Gnuxie 💜🐝 Gnuxie@social.applied-langua.ge

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:45 PM

  @cwebber I think it's important too. Because it's like basic courtesy. But even then your work will influence people in ways that copyright cannot (and should not) protect. E.g. clean room engineering whether it's malicious or not just avoid copyright regardless of the reason it's being done. Or just because the ideas turn out to be good now that you've had to fight mf's against all odds to eat them. Do you still want acknowledgement in those circumstances? yeah. Can it be obvious if it isn't given? Well to yourself it will be.
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  Gnuxie 💜🐝 Gnuxie@social.applied-langua.ge

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:48 PM

  @cwebber Btw you should see it as a major success if an LLM is pumping out goblins code to someone. The fight is over the ideas. The code isn't worth half as much unless it is solving someone's problem. I get that saying this distracts from a discussion over the code though.
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  /dev/urandomrnd@toot.cat

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:47 PM

  @cwebber attribution is probably one of the most important concerns in my opinion

  there's a reason plagiarism is considered a lot worse than mere copyright infringement

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  David Fi&erdjfiander@code4lib.social

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:46 PM

  @cwebber attribution in licenses is how UC Berkeley brought down AT&T and the UNIX System Labs.

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  glitchcake⚡🍰🇵🇸glitchcake@tech.lgbt

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:48 PM

  @cwebber This is absolutely me.

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:49 PM

  @cwebber What if the attribution is then done to every piece of training data? That's not impossible if the training data is known, but will it be acceptable?

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 7:31 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber

  .. no the collection of training data is a problem because of the massive amount of strain it places on infrastructure set for the commons that makes it impossible for anyone else to access, and becuase its appropriating the commons then selling it back to you,

  which still has nothing to do w copyright.

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 7:45 PM

  @Li @cwebber Not all the training data is putting strain. There are training datasets that were crawled respecting robots.txt.

  I am most interested in the scenario when there is a training dataset (crawled once without hitting servers repeatedly), and used for open weight model.

  Open data+weight still does not address attribution. That's why my question.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 7:50 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber robots.txt is kind of for 20 different purposes, like e.g to know what parts of your site are pointless to try access (like things behind a login or paywall or something) so dont bother, its also things you want to be delisted from the site and also apparently also things you dont want used for training (which is still an opt out and thus manufactured consent but ok)

  also thats still ignoring every other issue AI has thats not related to training data, it has a bad impact on people and the world as a whole too.

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:01 PM

  @Li @cwebber Sure. But I am asking about very specific issue - attribution.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:03 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber no your using someone saying attribution is an issue; then going "oh if we just do attribution then its acceptable" no, its not because its not the only issue

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:05 PM

  @Li @cwebber I am not interested to discuss other problems with LLMs here. I am only looking to see about attribution specifically.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:06 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber cool? then your question is dishonest- they still dont exist in a vaccum despite your insistence to say that they do,

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:17 PM

  @Li @cwebber Yet, the question about attribution can be addressed independently. I am not sure what is dishonest about this.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:24 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber your asking if you just add attributiion will ai be acceptable. the answer is no- because of reasons other than attribution, but then you refuse to address those. and say your "only about attribution"

  how is that not dishonest?

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:29 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber

  like ok ..
  "if we pretend every other issue doesn't exist, and then solve this one specific one you brought up, is it fine now?"

  .. no. because of the issues you pretend dont exist.

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:38 PM

  @Li @cwebber I did not imply that solving attribution automatically resolves every other issue. I am asking about specific thing - AI not propertly attributing its sources used for the output. That's a concrete problem. I asked if attributing to *all* sources is good.engough to solve this particular problem.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:40 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber 'if i only consider this one issue, then solve that issue, is that issue solved' you answered your own question and is pointless to ask, other than as to try give ai legitimacy. -- still dishonest,

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:43 PM

  @Li @cwebber I conclude from your answer that referring to all sources, even not really used in the specific output is practically solving attribution (at least, from your perspective). I'd like to point out that may or may not be enough for other people who are looking for their work to be attributed.

  So, no, I did not say "consider one issue, then solve that issue". What I proposed may or may not be a solution.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:43 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber how is attributing something, not solving the issue, of having no attribution, that makes no sense.

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:48 PM

  @Li @cwebber Let's me give you exaggregated example - what if every slop code starts to attribute *every possible website on the internet*. Or even non-slop code using a code licensed with attribution does not attribute just to that code, but also to 1000 other codes (that have very little to do with this non-slop code). That feels not exactly right, although might technically fulfill the license. But maybe that's just me.

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  Li ~ Crystal SystemLi@tech.lgbt

  Oct 16, 2026, 8:53 PM

  @yantar92 @cwebber oh thats what you mean, yeah thats not obvious at all from what you said,

  but also movies and books and such have for awhile includes a "special thanks" section of ppl who were not actually really involved at all,

  and tbh over-attribution is usually not a problem- agree it feels kinda shit here

  however i will note that in movies and books and such attribution is usually also in context, of like "these ppl filmed it, these ppl did sfx, this ppl wrote the script.. " etc. which AI doesn't really do that, nor can it, in this case its not even that they "did" it, really its like "??? (edited? generated? idfk how you'd even describe what AI does) from this work here from this person here"

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  Ihor Radchenko (yantar92)yantar92@fosstodon.org

  Oct 16, 2026, 9:03 PM

  @Li @cwebber That's what I thought rightaway after I came up with this idea with overattribution. Obvious for me, and I wanted to see if it is the same for others. (It is not).

  For the attribution context, one can always invent new word for it (like "statistically inspired" of whatever).

  The bigger issue is for authors who may not even care about open source, but just want attribution to see usefulness of their work. Over-attribution is an insult for them.

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  ferunandogureito@mastodon.gamedev.place

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:48 PM

  @cwebber yep. same 👍️

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  (roll m3tti)m3tti@functional.cafe

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:52 PM

  @cwebber attribution is the single most valuable thing a person or a project could get imho. But i guess this is due to the fact the most of the tech persons in the past were either academics or people with high hacker ethics. I miss the times were tech especially in opensource was about getting the badge to be a smartass or a project everyone looks up to. Nowadays even opensource projects just try to be funded or bought by a third party

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  ArneBabArneBab@rollenspiel.social

  Oct 18, 2026, 11:45 AM

  @m3tti is this really no longer the case?

  Looking at the recent SRFI’s,¹ I see lots of clever solutions. Many not funded.

  Could the impression that this does not happen be due to funded projects and projects looking for an exit having a much bigger marketing budget than people who do clever stuff in their spare time?

  ¹ https://srfi.schemers.org/
  @cwebber

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  (roll m3tti)m3tti@functional.cafe

  Oct 18, 2026, 12:39 PM

  @ArneBab @cwebber for sure and more press and stuff. And due to the fact that lots of people in tech are just hype followers those clever most of the time better solutions don't get the appreciations they would deserve

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  aevaaeva@mastodon.gamedev.place

  Oct 14, 2026, 7:54 PM

  @cwebber I've always considered it to be important to respect even when it is optional. Tangerine had an attribution page that reproduced the license/copyright notices for the entire dependency graph. I had all the dependencies vendored, so the page was generated automatically from the sources. Mollytime will have a similar feature (eventually) once we're done rebuilding the UI and I figure out a way to do it without vendoring everything.

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  aevaaeva@mastodon.gamedev.place

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:12 PM

  @cwebber i think over the decades my hopes for my FOSS work burned down from a big important career making big important things, to hoping anyone at all finds my stuff to be useful for something, to i guess i can entertain a few dozen people for a few minutes every now and then, to ok i get it pausing your music to listen to worse music is too much to ask, to, look, i drew some pictures do you like pictures

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  aevaaeva@mastodon.gamedev.place

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:15 PM

  @cwebber and the idea that the outcome of this is my work being slurped up into a training set for my contributions to be misattributed to the theft machine, and nobody knowing i exist is not ok

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  aevaaeva@mastodon.gamedev.place

  Oct 14, 2026, 8:18 PM

  @cwebber but ultimately i'm not interested in taking anyone to court. i don't have the money to burn for that, and the impact on my health would probably be unlikely to have been worth it to me. so all i get out of a license is a statement of intent. people generally are good about respecting the intent of the license, so that's worked out well so far (even if it's been mostly not applicable anyway). but these ai companies don't give a shit, and i'm at a loss of what to do about it

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