Eryk SalvaggioCyberneticForests
Jul 10, 2024, 2:50 AMIs Sunday the first day of the week, or the last of the week? Please boost for visibility, trying to see something!
Replies
argonautargonaut@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 3:20 AM@CyberneticForests it’s funny that in America Sunday is considered both the first day of the week and also part of the “week-end” and no one sees the incongruence.
- Eryk SalvaggioCyberneticForestsJul 10, 2024, 3:23 AM
@argonaut My wife and I have a different sense of what it is, but we are both American! I think it may be a regional thing?
- argonautargonaut@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 3:29 AM
@CyberneticForests could be. I just know that Europe thinks the week start with Monday and ends with Sunday, as most of South America, and anyone that, like me, follows the international standard ISO 8601.
Jul 10, 2024, 6:42 AMThat's just Eurocentric imperialism pushed onto the world.
But in saying that, a week is just a construct. It's not really a measure of time.
1 day is basically a revolution of the earth on its axis.
1 month is roughly a completion of the cycles of the moon (one month revolution around the earth). But days have been added in most months so it doesn't track anymore.
One year is the plus/minus one rotation of the earth around the Sun. Leep year structure sorts out most of the variance.
But what is a week. It's not based on anything that I know. So who cares when it starts or ends as it's cyclical. If the end is a Saturday or a Sunday or a Wednesday it makes no difference.
Also the Ritalin has kicked in.
Infrapink (he/his/him)Infrapink@mastodon.ieJul 11, 2024, 4:12 AM@Weanerdog
The Sumerians had special religious observances on the days of the moon's canonical phases - the first visible crescent, waxing half, full moon, and waning half. These are usually 7 days apart, sometimes 8. As time went on, this got regularised to just 7 days, each of which was then associated with one of the non-stellar lights in the sky.And that's where we get the seven-day week.
@argonaut @CyberneticForests- Jul 11, 2024, 7:41 AM
@Infrapink @argonaut @CyberneticForests
Oh wow. Thank you. That is so cool. I suppose there goes my argument.
I can't believe I didn't work this out I am truely not as smart as our Sumerian brothers although to be honest I know very little about Sumeria, as you could probably tell. I only really know bits of the Legend of Gilgamesh.
Okay people, week starts when we see the different phase of the moon.
Marcos Dionemdione@en.osm.townJul 10, 2024, 11:36 AM@CyberneticForests @argonaut same thing and we're South American! Even same city...
Disclaimer: I'm only talking about calendars here. Emotionally, yes, week starts on Monday, but a calendar drawn like that only confuses me...
- CodexNotFoundCodexNotFound@mastodon.worldJul 10, 2024, 10:46 AM
@argonaut @CyberneticForests I thought the same until someone said: look at bookends, they surround books as well, so do weekends.
I did not have anything to say against that logic, besides that we don't call them bookends in Dutch.
Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPETimWardCam@c.imJul 10, 2024, 5:54 PM@argonaut @CyberneticForests When you have your diary open at this week's page (whether on paper or on screen), do you want to see what you *were* doing last Sunday or what you *will* be doing next Sunday?
Bit of a no-brainer, isn't it.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 3:28 AM
The traditional day of rest, the seventh(7), is the 'sabbath' day, also known as Saturday. Therefore Sunday, the day of light, is the first(1),
- (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 4:26 AM
@AzureCerulean @CyberneticForests except we're past that. We have two days of rest, called 'the weekend'. Splitting it up on the calendar and making Sunday the first day of the calendar week no longer makes sense.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 4:28 AM
@rainynight65 @CyberneticForests
That wasn't what the question was.
Our current calendar is based off of that system, it is Not subjective. It is an absolute.
- (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 4:29 AM
@AzureCerulean @CyberneticForests it is definitely not an absolute. As you can see in this thread, different ideas exist around the world. Where I grew up, the calendar week started on Monday and ended on Sunday.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 4:31 AM
@rainynight65 @CyberneticForests
I didn't ask about You or anyone else.. I stated based on our calendar is Sunday the 1st day of the week.. and it is.
Now, if you want to use the ISO standard, 8601. Then yes, Sunday would be the seventh day.
The United States and the rest of the Western Hemisphere use the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian calendar was initially implemented by the Catholic Church in 1582. The week starts on Sunday.
Ash_CrowAsh_Crow@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 6:54 AM@AzureCerulean @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests most countries that use the Gregorian calendar have weeks starting on Monday.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 7:00 AM
@Ash_Crow @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests
Incorrect. The ISO calendar week starts on Monday. The Gregorian week starts on Sunday.
- Ash_CrowAsh_Crow@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 7:18 AM
@AzureCerulean @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests for religious use, yes. In everyday use, not anymore in most of the countries that use it.
ISO 8601 is not a calendar, it is a standard of exchange and communication of date and time-related data.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 7:23 AM
@Ash_Crow @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests
Read what I said again, "The ISO /calendar week/ starts on Monday."
I did NOT say ISO CALENDAR to be clear.
"The standard provides a well-defined, unambiguous method of representing calendar dates"
CyberPunkerCyberPunker@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 4:07 PM@AzureCerulean @Ash_Crow @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests and the standard should be used instead of religious hokuspokus
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 7:00 PM
@CyberPunker @Ash_Crow @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests
Again, that is NOT the question.
Please educate yourself on what an Opinion and a Fact are. I am stating Facts, not a view or opinion.
“Should” is an Opinion.
As it has been noted prior by others, the ISO Standard is Not a Calendar, it's a way of addressing and communication information.
- Ash_CrowAsh_Crow@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 7:27 AM
@AzureCerulean @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests (and specifically, it is a standard for formatting dates *of* the Gregorian calendar. Opposing them makes no sense.)
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 7:38 AM
@Ash_Crow @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests
For or against('opposing') are for opinions, of which I am not speaking too. I am stating facts. The Gregorian Calendar's week (which much of the world still relies) starts on Sunday(Domingo), "The First Day'/'The Lord's Day', ending the week on Saturday(Sabado), 'The Sabbath Day'.
This goes back to Babylonian and even likely prior to the Sumerian method of Date and time keeping.
- (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 8:08 AM
@AzureCerulean @Ash_Crow @CyberneticForests frankly, religious motivations for determining start and end of week are outdated, obsolete, and no longer have a basis in reality. Just because "it's been like that for a long time", doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't change. And clearly, many countries even with strong religious populations use a calendar format where the week starts on Monday.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 8:23 AM
@rainynight65 @Ash_Crow @CyberneticForests
I never said that it should or should not be one way or the other. As I have already stated..as a point of FACT, the calendar that is generally used around the world is based on the Gregorian Calendar, whose week begins on Sunday. Which was the Original Question.. Not whether we agreed or thought it should be different.. But Which day IS IT!? And As I have now cited, MULTIPLE articles and backed it with other supporting facts.. it is The 1st day.
- Ash_CrowAsh_Crow@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 8:36 AM
@AzureCerulean @rainynight65 @CyberneticForests but you are wrong. The actual fact is that most countries in the world use the Gregorian calendar, whose week starts on Sunday for liturgical use (nobody is questioning that, it's just out of topic), and on Monday, Sunday or Saturday for everyday use, depending on country (and in that order or frequency)
- (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 8:44 AM
@AzureCerulean @Ash_Crow @CyberneticForests you haven't provided one single citation in any of your replies.
mirabilos🐈⬛mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.orgJul 10, 2024, 12:36 PM@CyberneticForests @rainynight65 @AzureCerulean yes, there is an absolute standard for our current calendar, and it is not based on any one religion. ISO 8601 it is called, and it is very clear that the weekdays are 1=Monday through 7=Sunday.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 6:55 PM
@mirabilos @CyberneticForests @rainynight65
We have already established it's a standard and that the standard way to communicate dates is that Monday is the starting day, but that does not answer the question.
It's very name means that Sunday is the 1st day of the week in any country that uses the Gregorian Calendar as it's base.
Please feel free to comment when you have something to add.
- mirabilos🐈⬛mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.orgJul 10, 2024, 7:06 PM
@AzureCerulean @CyberneticForests @rainynight65 Sunday is merely named like this because of the god Sunna, it has nothing to do with either being the beginning or being the end of the week.
Please feel free to go educate yourself instead of bothering people.
- (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 7:22 PM
@AzureCerulean @mirabilos @CyberneticForests the Wikipedia article you linked, as well as the Wikipedia article about the Gregorian calendar, do not corroborate your claim. It is simply not accurate, much less a 'fact'. Also, the Wikipedia article you linked shows a map of which countries have which day as the start of their week - and it's Monday in most of the world.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 7:30 PM
@rainynight65 @mirabilos @CyberneticForests
I never said the articles were facts, just supporting the argument for the Facts.
The Day named after the Sun, is one of the Week end days, as Saturday is the other. Saturday being the end of the week, and Sunday being at the Other end of the week, the start. The day associated with the Sun has from antiquity been the 1st day of the week.
...
1/2 - (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 8:30 PM
@AzureCerulean @mirabilos @CyberneticForests you misread me. What I said is that some of the things you claim to be facts are, in fact, not corroborated (and even partially refuted) by the source you cited.
For example: the Gregorian calendar does not formalise first and last week day. Whichever day a week starts and ends with is, in all cases, an opinion, religious or not.
My recommendation to you is to take your own advice.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 9:03 PM
@rainynight65 @mirabilos @CyberneticForests
You seem to refute yourself in your own reply.. both Saturday and Sunday BOTH can not be the end of the week unless Sunday is the 1st day at one end and Saturday on the other END.
(https://mastodon.social/@rainynight65/112760297113421597)And again You fail to understand.
Second Chart, first row, second column:
> Days of the week
> "First Day" or "Lord's Day" (Sunday)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week
OP:
"Is Sunday the first day"; YES - (rainynight65) has movedrainynight65@mastodon.socialJul 10, 2024, 9:09 PM
@AzureCerulean @mirabilos @CyberneticForests that specific chart is preceded by the following text:
"An ecclesiastical, non-astrological, system of numbering the days of the week was adopted in Late Antiquity. [...] The ecclesiastical system became prevalent in Eastern Christianity, but in the Latin West it remains extant only in modern Icelandic, Galician, and Portuguese."
Context matters. Especially the word 'ecclesiastical'.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 9:12 PM
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 7:30 PM
@rainynight65 @mirabilos @CyberneticForests
...
There is an ISO standard that is used for communication, which is not a calendar that uses Monday as the 1st day. (Likely for 'work' related purposes[opinion])
2/2
caravantravellers 🌈caravantraveller@social.cologneJul 10, 2024, 6:32 AM@AzureCerulean @CyberneticForests
Actually, according to Christian tradition, Sunday is the day of rest.
In German, "Werktag" (working day) are Monday through Saturday.
Plus, an ISO standard is binding.
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 6:36 AM
@caravantraveller @CyberneticForests
No. 'Keep the Sabbath' as the Lord rested on the 7th day (Saturday, ask the 7th Day Adventist if you have questions).. Sunday is the day of the Lord, aka that's why it in romance languages it's typically Domingo.
- caravantravellers 🌈caravantraveller@social.cologneJul 10, 2024, 6:42 AM
@AzureCerulean @CyberneticForests
We don't have 7th Day Adventists here. That's something very US-American. 🤪
Ask the Catholic Church about Sunday, if you believe in these old stories.
Since most of the world is non-Christian and non-Jewish, it would be best not to allow these religions rule the world.
2/3 atheist in Sweden 👍
- AzureCeruleanAzureCerulean@4bear.comJul 10, 2024, 6:46 AM
Martin Vermeer FCDmartinvermeer@fediscience.orgJul 10, 2024, 9:02 AM@AzureCerulean @CyberneticForests Yep. Once you honour a tradition, just honour the original version of it.
Brendan (he/him)Brendan@phpc.socialJul 10, 2024, 4:24 AM@CyberneticForests I believe it’s a regional thing.
- Daniel Durransdanieldurrans@mastodon.me.ukJul 10, 2024, 6:01 AM
@CyberneticForests is this another one of those things where the USA refuses to go metric?
- Jul 10, 2024, 7:01 AM
@danieldurrans @CyberneticForests
I don't think it's a US - metric thing. I'm in South Africa and it was taught that Sunday is the first day of the week. However, most people consider Monday the first day of the work week ergo the logical first day of the week. I think it's becoming a more people believe it to be Monday, and as it makes no difference, so then it's became the first day of the week.
AskASwissAskASwiss@chaos.socialJul 10, 2024, 6:38 AM@CyberneticForests depends on the language
Jul 10, 2024, 6:44 AM@CyberneticForests Is that a coded "Are you a christian or an atheist" question?
- mirabilos🐈⬛mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.orgJul 10, 2024, 12:37 PM
@deBaer @CyberneticForests it’s not. (Neither.)
Jul 10, 2024, 7:12 AM@CyberneticForests@assemblag.es
Sunday is the second day of a 2 day long "week end"- leah & tigers & bears, oh my!thamesynne@dragon.styleJul 10, 2024, 8:05 AM
@CyberneticForests "Yes" option please?
Graham DownsGrahamDowns@mastodon.africaJul 10, 2024, 8:07 AM@CyberneticForests It's "The day after the Sabbath," says the Bible. And the Sabbath is clearly the Seventh Day (nobody disputes that, do they?).
Ergo, Sunday must be the First Day of the Week. :-P
Magnus Ahltorpahltorp@mastodon.nuJul 10, 2024, 1:17 PM@GrahamDowns @CyberneticForests If you follow those rules and celebrate Sabbath on Saturday, I’m with you. For everyone that celebrates Sabbath on Sunday, which is most Christians, you are clearly wrong.
- Graham DownsGrahamDowns@mastodon.africaJul 10, 2024, 3:18 PM
@ahltorp @CyberneticForests even most Christians acknowledge that the Sabbath is a Saturday. To my knowledge, they never changed the Sabbath to a Sunday. They just changed the day of worship to the day after the Sabbath because that's when Jesus rose from the dead.
Seventh Day Adventists reject that and still worship on the actual Sabbath, but nobody actually proposed CHANGING the Sabbath day.
I could be wrong, but I think even Catholics would admit that the Sabbath is Saturday. 🤔
- Graham DownsGrahamDowns@mastodon.africaJul 10, 2024, 3:22 PM
@ahltorp @CyberneticForests in any event, here in South Africa at least, Sunday is the first day of the week. All calendars are calibrated that way, and Windows Regional Settings defaults to that when you pick South Africa as your region. :-)
- Magnus Ahltorpahltorp@mastodon.nuJul 10, 2024, 3:27 PM
@GrahamDowns @CyberneticForests It’s quite clear that most Christians treat Sunday as the “In it you shall not do any work”-day, as mentioned in the commandment.
- Graham DownsGrahamDowns@mastodon.africaJul 10, 2024, 3:32 PM
@ahltorp @CyberneticForests effectively yeah, I guess you're right. But it isn't strictly correct. And it wasn't actually the intention behind deciding that we now go to church on Sundays. :-)
And there really a day like that anymore anyway, with many businesses being open 7 days a week nowadays. :-/
- Graham DownsGrahamDowns@mastodon.africaJul 10, 2024, 3:41 PM
@ahltorp @CyberneticForests and then, of course, there's the whole discussion that Jesus started, about what is permissible on the Sabbath. Healing people? Giving them food and water? Shelter? Helping them up if they've fallen down?
It's about the spirit of the law. The Sabbath is for glorifying God and showing His love and mercy, and giving alms. And sometimes those things fall into what we humans might categorise as "work".
DopeGhotiDopeGhoti@infosec.exchangeJul 10, 2024, 8:10 AM@CyberneticForests
I was heretofore unaware that the ISO standard decrees Monday to be the canonical start of the week. Prior to reading this, to my mind the days of the "weekend" by definition marked each "end" of the span of the one week; to wit, the first and last days of said week. With that working definition, Sunday and Saturday were the first and last days respectively.But on the other hand, ISO standard; therefore Sunday is the last day of the week.
Donald R Nobledrnoble@mastodon.scotJul 10, 2024, 11:11 AM@DopeGhoti @CyberneticForests if it was weekends, then I could see your prior definition, but it is singular, so the days must be together at the end of the week (as per ISO8601)
baerbaer@bonn.socialJul 10, 2024, 8:30 AM@CyberneticForests
According to the international standard ISO 8601, Monday is considered the first day of the week.
txt.filetxt_file@chaos.socialJul 10, 2024, 8:47 AM@CyberneticForests As Paul Vixie decided: "day of week 0-7 (0 or 7 is Sun, or use names)". So the answer is "both". https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/cron/crontab.5.en.html
