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  • Oct 28, 2026, 10:21 PM

    @josch

    This is a really, really difficult question. It’s something that classroom / course process tactics can mitigate, but not something they can solve. You really have to go deep into psychology: what students think education is for, how they imagine their own learning, what pressures they’re experiencing, what kinds of resilience they have.

    There are some advantages I have going for me in my situation that an instructor can’t control:

    - liberal arts college → students already likely to be invested in the idea that the •experience• of school is what’s valuable, as opposed to just the credential you acquire at the end

    - unusually human-centered and anti-conformist campus culture

    - strong cooperative (I’d even say anti-competitive) academic culture among the students

    There are also things that •are• under instructor control:

    - CS curriculum that’s •extremely• heavy on active learning: in-class time spent working hands on with code instead of just lecture (especially in intro classes)

    - lots of projects and smaller assignments with a creative element that create pride of ownership, sense of agency, emotional investment in results

    - flexible grading policies that help reduce the sorts of panic that lead to shortcutting and cheating

    - positive student/instructor relationships, as much as I can manage

    - normalizing struggle as a common and a •desirable• part of learning

    …and then in that context, I talk a lot about •why• we’re doing what we’re doing, how learning works, how time and struggle are essential (“If you go to the gym and have a robot lift weights, do you expect to get stronger?”), and how grades are just a transient and essentially meaningless incentive structure and the •only• real thing of value they take away from the class will be the experience.

    @ireneista @baldur

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 12:23 AM

    @inthehands @josch @ireneista @baldur
    For CS specifically I think the past 15 years or so have seen a motivational split among students.

    CS used to be "geeky"; nobody would pick it unless they were actively interested in coding and/or applied math. But once it became a high status, extremely well paid job, people started choosing it not because they like coding, but because it's a good career.

    Nothing wrong with that! But, the incentives change and the degree becomes the point.

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 12:26 AM

    @inthehands @josch @ireneista @baldur
    To make extremely clear, "Well-paid indoor job without heavy lifting" is a perfectly good reason to pursue something. Ask any lawyer how much they *really* like the actual law part of their job.

    But the motivations among students do differ, depending on if you're learning something you'd learn on your own anyway if you had the chance; or if it is to get credentials that can give you a roof over your head and food on the table.

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 3:03 PM

    @jannem

    All that is true. Fortunately, for the topic of •this• thread (avoiding learning loss from LLM shortcutting), it’s not necessary to split my teaching for different parts of the vocation / avocation continuum!

    For the students for whom CS education is primarily vocational (and more power to them), I can say quite honestly that:

    - Having the degree helps open some employment doors, more in some places than others — but even in the most credentialist regions and job markets, it doesn’t do much more than get you •in• the door. If you are unable to function in your job, you’re not going to do well professionally…except maybe at the most dysfunctional of businesses and in the most miserable of career trajectories. The experience of education is •still• what matters most, even in purely professional terms.

    - Getting the degree may open doors, but individual course grades? My dude, nobody really cares whether you got an A+ or B- in COMP 127 at Macalester. Come on.

    - However, lack of struggle means lack of learning, which •will• inhibit your ability to function in a job. So you LLM and/or cheat your way through intro CS and manage to get away with it and get an A. So what? Nobody else cares about the A, and you’re coming into all the next steps with a deficit. That’s going to be miserable; the only way through is an ever-enlarging snowball of deception. That does not end well. Far better (for you, for your career) to struggle and take the B+.

    - Whatever the future of AI in employment, each human’s job market differentiator is always going to be what •they• can do as a human. If you’re not building some kind of capacity that is you and not the tool, then what are you bringing to the job market? A slip of paper and an AI subscription that anyone can buy? Good luck with that.

    So yes, motivations differ, but even so, the underlying messages of good learning — make it your own work, embrace struggle, be engaged, be curious — apply to both passion-seekers and job-seekers. There are plenty of other ways in which there is pedagogical tension between those groups, but this isn’t one of them!

    @josch @ireneista @baldur

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 7:48 AM

    @jannem

    The change of incentives has made the industry more productive, with more labour, for sure.

    But the change has also made the industry not actively seek good solutions to real problems anymore, and that has caused a significant quality issue in software, even before LLM's entered the scene.

    When everyone was a geek, the solutions we found tended to be much more technically sound.

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 5:30 AM

    @inthehands @josch @ireneista @baldur this is a really lovely answer. You sound like a great educator and person. If people found someone to check at least 10% of your boxes, that’d be amazing.

    As an anecdote, although I’m nowhere near education, some of my family members have continued it in Europe to Master and PhD level (non-CS) and found it disappointing to say the least.

    Their professors have been mostly hands-off and the expectation is “sink or swim”, which they struggled with. That’s how it was for me too years back; the idea being you become more independent with your time and self study as you profess from high school to higher education. You’re no longer given timetables, homework, etc., and the responsibility to organize your work and time falls on you, to prepare you for life after education.

    But they’re a different generation and have struggled miserably, or failed. Those who didn’t just dropped out instead. Something is very amiss in the social contract around education as well as how it’s being taught.

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 5:42 AM

    @diemkay In Germany, accountability of Professors exists on paper but in practice you don't have any power as a PhD student even if you are getting exploited. The Uni will support the professor which is able to generate money and publicity for the Uni over the PhD students well-being. Knowing that, I even moved to a different city with my partner @Akirakio because I knew it would be close to impossible to find a better PhD supervisor (Prof. Andreas Nüchter). @inthehands @ireneista @baldur

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 5:48 AM

    @josch @Akirakio @inthehands @ireneista @baldur yep, that was our realization too. My examples had Switzerland and Netherlands in mind, so pretty close. I’m not sure what the different countries’ regulations are specifically but it always means the school, not the student comes out on top.

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 3:26 PM

    @diemkay @josch

    Colleges and universities are all over the map in the US. There is •enormous• variations between institutions and even individual departments. Unfortunately, many of them share patterns you describe. Many places reward profs for enriching the institution, no matter how much they harm students. Many graduate programs have unchecked abuse of graduate students, and I mean •abuse•: not just bad teaching, but stealing work, verbal assult, sexual assault….

    Fortunately, the variation goes both ways: lots of people and places are doing wonderfully human-centered work, trying daring new things with pedagogy, putting institutional resources into care and nurturing.

    If you’re curious about pedagogy, you might be interested in The New College Classroom, which is a book that gives an overview / grab bag of some of the current pedagogy currents in higher ed.

    @Akirakio @ireneista @baldur

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  • Oct 29, 2026, 3:20 PM

    @diemkay

    This is a very kind message. Thank you.

    I don’t think much of this attitude of “sink or swim gives you good life prep;” that’s just lazy teaching. Don’t get me wrong: I’m a big big big fan of open-ended structure, self-directed timelines, and things that move agency and ownership into students’ own hands. That’s all good, very good!

    However, you don’t do that by just saying “do whatever works for you and show up on exam day, you’re own your own.” That’s just lazy teaching!

    No, you do it by (1) providing strong scaffolding, especially at the •start•, (1a) and that means both procedural and philosophical scaffolding, giving students a clear “what” and a clear “why,” and (2) forming good relationships with students so that their struggles lead to productive interactions with peers and professors, as opposed to suffering in isolation. Teaching is relational, not transactional!

    @josch @ireneista @baldur

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