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  • Sunflorapunkxaq@kolektiva.social
    Nov 8, 2026, 2:56 AM

    @mishari @alexandra I think it is indeed a capitalism struggle, but not comparable.
    An example I'm thinking about is this: You can code without LLMs, just as you can also transport food on your back by walking to markets so people can buy it in order to eat. Both would take some time, but food bc is quickly fungible, code will not rot, food will. Sometimes, time matters. And in this case we can compare what it is to use a problematic system to fullfill a fisiological need (transport food so people can eat, nourishment, health) with using another problematic system to "shortcut" workload or tools. This got me thinking about any real life example in which oneself really need to rush things that it is needed to code using LLMs or agentic AI bc we can't just wait to do it ourselves as the world did before 2018? Or is it just hype?

    Of course we can boycott the fossil fuel industry, people can commute to work, use the public trasnport system, make chages in its routines, and every small scale transirion that it os available to their reality and possibilities. And still the way our society has been built will still rely on fossil fuel to power trucks, buses, planes, ships, etc. to mantain the many industries that depend on them.

    But then, I contemplate genAI as something that it's just getting started (I'm not talking about machine learning), it hasn't been implemented as the foundations of tons of industries (besides the hype).

    We are still on time to be more cautious about these things, and to be more critical 🫂

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  • Wayne Wernerketmorco@fosstodon.org
    Nov 8, 2026, 3:55 AM

    @xaq @mishari @alexandra I would also consider "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism"

    Just because someone drives a car doesn't mean they're strictly evil, and if your job requires LLM use and you use it for your job then 🤷

    But the equivalent question would be "should I reject contributions from someone just because they buy a 4 gallon per mile car from Donald Trump?"

    And... yeah that sounds like a terrible person that we would not want un-repentant in our communities.

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  • Tzafrirtzafrir@tooot.im
    Nov 8, 2026, 8:44 AM

    @mishari @xaq @alexandra
    Noone really addressed Eli's point about fragmentation. Slavery is a clear case of evil, but what about other cases?

    Let's take another hypothetical case where emacs fragments once again between Emacs-US and Emacs-China. Both consider the other evil. What do we do then?

    And I also think that "evil" is the wrong question. Does it harm development?

    If a developer is abusive to others? yes. If a developer floods the bug tracker with slop: yes.

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  • Victoria :3 🏳️‍⚧️🇵🇸tragivictoria@mastodon.com.pl
    Nov 8, 2026, 12:16 PM

    @tzafrir @mishari @xaq @alexandra

    > Both consider the other evil. What do we do then?

    Research what they are doing and what they stand for. Just like with any other thing.

    > And I also think that "evil" is the wrong question. Does it harm development?

    Nah, full stop. There are more important things than some silly software development.

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  • Tzafrirtzafrir@tooot.im
    Nov 8, 2026, 12:45 PM

    @tragivictoria @mishari @xaq @alexandra

    Surely there are more important questions. And there are plenty of other venues to discuss them.

    The mailing list emacs-devel, however, is about software development. A very specific software (even though some people claim it includes all you ever need from a computer).

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  • Tzafrirtzafrir@tooot.im
    Nov 8, 2026, 12:55 PM

    @tragivictoria @mishari @xaq @alexandra

    Not really. This was an extreme hypothetical example raised by someone else (Brian). Eli's response was: we can't start checking moral compass of every contribution. It's impractical and murky.

    Do we make every contributor sign the JSON license[1]?

    If you have any specific objections, please make them. "Evil" is not a useful one.

    [1] json.org/license.html

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  • Tzafrirtzafrir@tooot.im
    Nov 8, 2026, 1:54 PM

    @chucker @tragivictoria @mishari @xaq @alexandra

    A CoC is very practical and very actionable. I have no idea who Jia Tan, or Jane Doe, is. They might actually be a slave trader or a botnet operator. I can't tell.

    But if Jia Tan starts misbehaving around my community, that is something I know very well and should react to.

    A CoC is not about who you are or what you think. It is about what you do in our community (mailing list, conference, whatever).

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  • PiTauPiTau@mastodon.com.pl
    Nov 8, 2026, 9:31 AM

    @mishari @xaq @alexandra Here's the thing, as of now, oil rules. But that wasn't always the case. Even if we couldn't avoid it, we could've enacted more fair profit and cost split.

    With LLMs we are before they rule. The bet is that the first one to have LLM so powerful and widely used, that it gets industry addicted to it, will gain near unlimited rent from all around the world. It's oil 2.0 but worse. Oil gave physical capabilities. Here the fight is for competencies. For being able to effectively withhold the labor, hence having political power to fight for rights and retain them.

    If ownership of such tech is private, then power shifts to the private hands. Until this changes, resisting adoption is a form of protest.

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