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  • דאָס איז נישט קיין פּײַפּdukepaaron@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 2:06 PM

    There was a long time, until recently really, where I appreciated the distinctions inside the internal Jewish dialog between zionism, anti-zionism, non-zionism, and post-zionism (just to get at the main ones here).

    Those were interesting, wildly argumentative, and different approaches to the topic, but were very much unrelated to the distinctions between zionism and anti-zionism in gentile discourse for the most part. Not always, but mostly. It was a Jewish discourse.

    That was changing over time, but accelerated rapidly after Oct. 7 and its global fallout over the diaspora.

    Now that internal dialog has been all but assimilated and we're left with just the gentile discourse.

    We've been overtaken. Again.

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Replies

  • פְּרִיperibotsarah@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 2:10 PM

    @dukepaaron Almost like there's zionist, anti-zionist, jewish-anti-zionist, and post-zionist, and antijewish-antizionist

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  • פְּרִיperibotsarah@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 2:18 PM

    @dukepaaron I think this is what I'm going to use next time someone says something about anti-zionism "Yea, but which type of anti-zionism"

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  • André Polykaninemenelion@caneandable.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 2:11 PM

    @dukepaaron A Jewish friend once told me that zionism is the fact of recognizing Jewish people to have the right to live in Eretz Israel and have a state there, i.e., today it's recognizing the state of Israel. Is that correct or oversimplified?

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  • André Polykaninemenelion@caneandable.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 2:54 PM

    @dukepaaron I mean, if zionism is the fact to recognize the state of Israel, then "zionist" as insult is even more stupid to me. Yes, I do recognize the state of Israel, hence I'm a zionist? Okay, nice.

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  • Serge from Babkaserge@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:00 PM

    @menelion

    Yes, if you believe Israel has the right to exist, you're a Zionist. Most world leaders in the West were Zionists, and I'd even many still are, even if they refuse to use the word.

    @dukepaaron

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  • Serge from Babkaserge@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 2:59 PM

    @menelion

    What @dukepaaron is speaking to is a complex and nuanced conversation. It's not the same conversation that non-Jews are having.

    This isn't "What is Zionism", etc. it's more complex than that, and it's not really an outside conversation any more than, say what the bounds of one's marriage are. It's not for an outside.

    Duke's response that "it's whatever the popular conception is" is a response to emotional exhaustion, not an actual answer.

    For a standard answer for what it is, it's this:

    "Zionism is the belief that Jews have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland."

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  • Serge from Babkaserge@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:09 PM

    @menelion

    I feel like even my response was flippant.

    The discussion inside Judaism around Zionism is a complex and nuanced, but also there are (for me) lines that it crosses.

    I'll say straight out that wanting Israel's destruction is advocating for the murder or forced displacement of half the world's Jewish population. Wanting such a thing is hateful and gross.

    The people who want this within Judaism are a small minority, but they do exist, and they are loud.

    There is also not a small amount of racism associated with these folks. This anti-israel movement is largely driven by Ashkenazi Jews of privilege. I've seen anti-Sephardi and anti-Mizrahi racism in their messaging.

    Many have also accepted as true many antisemitic myths. Being Jewish does not automatically make one immune to propaganda.

    But then within the other sides are a set of nuanced views on all sides of the issue that would take volumes and volumes to explain properly.

    ...

    @dukepaaron

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  • Serge from Babkaserge@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:12 PM

    @menelion

    At the core of it are issues of one's relationship from being Jewish, which has historical, ethnic and genetic roots to ancient Israel, and relationship with both the modern state of Israel, of nationalism generally, of belief in European enlightenment, the American dream, belief in the messiah, grappling with the racism in Israel, the atrocities that Israel commits, the relationship between Israel and diasporatic Jews, the way Israel is singled out and exceptionalized, and more.

    @dukepaaron

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  • דאָס איז נישט קיין פּײַפּdukepaaron@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:12 PM

    @serge my take isn't from subject matter exhaustion.

    It's an outgrowth of my disdain for the continuing repercussions of the haskalah and the ideological oppression of living as a diasporic people in relation to those continuing repercussions.

    The easy release of stolen meaning is liberationist in nature.

    The political wings of gentile society want us trapped in their word games knowing that we can't win that fight for control of meaning, just for simple numerical reasons.

    @menelion

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  • Serge from Babkaserge@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:14 PM

    @dukepaaron

    Right, I'm more explaining to @menelion.

    If you'd talked to me 15 years ago, I would have come off as a Zionist who was largely publicly non-Zionist.

    That's changed not because my views have radically shifted, but because the externalities have changed.

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  • דאָס איז נישט קיין פּײַפּdukepaaron@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:30 PM

    @serge Even when she's articulating something I'm not in alignment with she's still nailing the essence of the issue. And in a way that is truly unassimilated.

    I stand by my opinion that she's the most important Jewish public intellectual of the 21st century so far. At least in the diaspora. And she's basically doing pop-culture style writing in these two particular books of hers.

    Just a phenomenal talent.

    I'm stalled on her book. It's my busy season at work which just also coincides with our holiday season. Every fn year. Really hard to get anything else done during this time of year, but I should be able to get back to it after I'm done with next week though.

    @menelion

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  • Serge from Babkaserge@babka.social
    Oct 1, 2026, 3:41 PM

    @dukepaaron

    A slightly modified quote from her interview.

    "[We aren't teaching antisemitism as bias or discrimination].

    We are teaching about antisemitism as a lie. It is a lie that people use to gain or maintain power. And the lie is always the same. Jews are destroying what you value the most.

    That's it.

    Jews are destroying what you value the most.

    And the only thing that changes in different eras, different social settings, different social circles, different cultures is what you value the most. So if you're in a deeply Christian society, then the whole rhetoric is around Jews are Christ killers. If you're in a racist society, Jews are an inferior race, if you're in an anti-racist society, Jews are racist."

    @menelion

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  • Amanda Carsonacarson@babka.social
    Oct 2, 2026, 1:32 PM

    @dukepaaron @serge @menelion I'm still making my way through People Love Dead Jews, but I've been watching all her interviews for the new book which I'm absolutely reading after I finish this one. I don't think I saw this one though, unless I'm confusing it with another one. So which interview is this?

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