Oct 26, 2026, 1:22 AMi wrote down my current thoughts on AI, first draft, titled "AI is Fake People": https://minute.social/index.html
what do you think?
- Oct 26, 2026, 1:22 AM
Replies
- Oct 26, 2026, 1:25 AM
i also should say that sections from Jordan S. Carroll's book "Speculative Whiteness—Science Fiction and the Alt-Right", which @holo_memory showed me a while ago, influenced my perspective on tech moguls' too literal embraces of sci-fi ideas https://www.upress.umn.edu/9781517917081/speculative-whiteness/
- Oct 26, 2026, 1:37 AM
funny, after reading the draft, @dngrs sent me this video by Another Roof, which is concerned with AI in mathematics but hits on very similar fundamental themes, which is that we enjoy art made by humans, and this also applies to mathematics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0MjPe7wXs8
Krystian Kuleszkrystian_kulesz@mastodon.com.plOct 26, 2026, 6:59 AM@mntmn @holo_memory Did you notice that eBook is more expensive than paperback? (15 vs 10 $)
Charles ShouldCharlesShould@mastodon.onlineOct 26, 2026, 1:47 AM
Oct 26, 2026, 1:43 AM@mntmn
> In the same way in which I want to experience art made by other humans as a form of emotional and mental connection, I enjoy using software, hardware, and other products that are made by caring, considerate human beings, and not by unfeeling robots. All of these artifacts are essentially fragments of human communicationSo much this.
- Oct 26, 2026, 1:47 AM
@mntmn
Also, a bit of a hypothetical tangent: Even if it was possible to make some kind of AI that would be able to write software with care, investors would never fund it, because - as you said - they need barely-working software written faster. 
pacaveganopacavegano@ieji.deOct 26, 2026, 1:48 AM@mntmn What do I think? I think that I wholeheartedly agree. I think that you write with a beautiful clarity. I think that I'm more happy than ever that I decided to order my next laptop from you. :-) Please keep creating--with words, with code, and with circuit diagrams.
Oct 26, 2026, 2:11 AM@mntmn I would reconsider the assertion that genAI boosters lack empathy. that may be true, but even people with ASPD — who truly feel no empathy — can choose to be kind.
the lacking quality, in my opinion, is compassion.
- Oct 26, 2026, 2:18 AM
@tully that's an interesting point i'll look into, thanks
✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 2:28 AM@mntmn i'm 100% with you on the second half (discussing programming as an art form and as an empathetic endeavour), but not really on the first one (transhumanism being exclusively a billionaire's fantasy). to the extent i was given a human mind i'm not happy with it and i won't be until i shape it to my own ends. do i get to be put into the same category as the likes of Musk and Bezos, now?
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 2:34 AM
@mntmn the other, not really immediately relevant but still important thing is... i can conceive of a machine mind being a peer (though not an equal), in theory; in the same way i can conceive of a cat's mind or a rabbit's mind being a peer (but not an equal)
LLMs are obviously not it, and it's obvious that the people arguing for this being the case right now are doing this in bad faith. but i don't subscribe to what i will (perhaps uncharitably) describe as "human chauvinism". haven't for a long time before the current discourse has been relevant, if anything, the tipping point for me was how people treat pets
this sort of thing is why i haven't, personally, affiliated myself with any of the number of "by humans, for humans" movements in computing despite my work being de facto part of a shared effort. i just don't feel good about accepting that kind of worldview. i don't really talk about it because it would be needlessly divisive in almost any context
Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 2:57 AM@whitequark @mntmn > haven't for a long time before the current discourse has been relevant, if anything, the tipping point for me was how people treat pets
Do you feel like people neglect their pets/shouldn't have them or that they value them too much? Or something else?
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 3:00 AM
@fullywoolly @mntmn pets are sometimes treated as outright property (i think this is bad), and the rest of the time the animal's autonomy is scarcely a serious consideration (i think this is also bad, even if i don't know how to address all of the concerns that come into play here)
specifically, what i'm saying is that it is possible to take care of someone's basic needs without really considering their autonomy
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 3:01 AM
@fullywoolly @mntmn this is also true of children, but children have the benefit that most of them get to grow up and then are capable of telling you to fuck off if you treat them poorly
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 3:04 AM
@fullywoolly @mntmn to circle back to the original question: i think that we, as a society, should abstain from putting ourselves in a position where we have to address these questions about an entirely new type of entity while we can't handle them for the types of entity we've dealt with for thousands of years
- Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 3:32 AM
@whitequark @mntmn I agree with that. And also the work scientist have done to show animal intelligence, but humanity in general still thinks we're special by divine right and thus property, cruelty, etc come into play. People still generally think animals are inferior and some doubt consciousness, then here we are with refined sand and bam! "It's alive!!"
I just don't understand how the skepticism and scrutiny vanished so fast
RobotistryRobotistry@fediscience.orgOct 26, 2026, 10:02 AM@fullywoolly @whitequark @mntmn That tipping point, from perfectly justified distrust to almost fully unjustified trust, is a human thing.
Two examples from autonomous robotics:
(1) An anecdote, names and affiliations redacted because I can't remember them: a company was trying to make their heavy equipment autonomous, and had assigned some employees to do it. During testing, the system had almost killed someone. They hired a specialist, whose first question as the machine tore across the parking lot was, "Where's the kill switch?" The employees needed to be told that a kill switch is the emergency off switch to prevent it from causing damage while in operation.
Months later, they had it doing a demo of following someone for the board, and one of the executives asked if it could follow him. The researchers thought about it, and said yes, and did a little initial training, and he gamboled around the test area followed by the heavy machinery. At which point the other members of the board went out onto the field without any system training at all to interact unsafely with what had, half an hour earlier, been colloquially known as "the killer machine" - as the researchers held their breath and hoped to avoid catastrophe.
(2) I personally transitioned from careful observation to "asking the safety driver lots of distracting questions" in two rounds of an autonomous driving test track. And I know better.
- Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:12 PM
@Robotistry @whitequark @mntmn that is quite an anecdote! You switched to full trust just watching some lemmings do it too.
- Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 3:28 AM
@whitequark @mntmn or like in my case, so neglected that you're turned into a human pretzel that people pleasing is the default... The lesser known fawn in flight, flight, freeze, or fawn. My major triumph was putting substantial physical distance between us. Maybe one day I'll work up to the "fuck off" stage. I'm sure it feels great!
- Ryanfullywoolly@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 3:24 AM
@whitequark @mntmn oh ya definitely. I'm guilty on the first front with my childhood dog. The one I had as an adult I largely let him retain as much of himself and act on his agency as was reasonable. I was inspired by reading the book "Merle's Door" where he treated a stray that went home with him more as a roommate rather than a pet.
The property thing though always makes me cringe.
- Oct 26, 2026, 11:20 AM
@whitequark the thing about pets really resonates with me. i've thought about animals multiple times while writing this, but didn't know how to include this topic. another self-critique that i had when i went to bed is like "i hope it's clear i don't mean prosthetics", and assistive technology. which is connected to your point about transhumanism. i'd call myself ex-transhumanist maybe, and recently learned about posthumanism. i'm not against augmentation and cyborgism, and am transgender.
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 12:00 PM
@mntmn i still don't actually know how we (as a society) should deal with cats. for example, TNR programs are probably worse from a genetic perspective than outright killing problem animals (though not as effective). on a less morbid note, cat colonies clearly have culture and approximately not a single person, no matter how cat-minded, would consider destruction of this kind of culture... consequential
(not isolated to cats, but cats are a good benchmark in that most humans are obsessed with cats in a positive way. so other animals get it worse in many ways.)
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 12:01 PM
@mntmn and yeah, I make no drastic difference between "posthuman" and "transhuman". the ends of the axis are (this is mostly a joke) "catholic" and "everything else". i'm on the "everything else" end
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 12:05 PM
@mntmn re: assistive technology: I posit that there is no fundamental difference between "assistive" tech (as in prosthetics for disability) and "enhancing" tech besides, perhaps, intent. i find it far more concerning when someone is more bothered with enforcing the natural order of things than actually making sure another's life is good
birth control, for example. most cis women can safely opt out of menstruation, or at least reduce the frequency to maybe once or twice a year. this is something that is between "utterly medically necessary" and "incredibly convenient". but it's only really getting recognized now in medicine
Oct 26, 2026, 12:22 PM@whitequark I think you're onto something here. As a disabled (legally blind) person myself, I'm suspicious of policies and positions that try to hold onto the natural order of things or old ways of doing things, while allowing a narrow exception for recognized disabilities. One example is going back to handwritten assignments and tests, while making an exception for blind people or people with mobility impairments. Yes, *they* can use a computer, a restricted one.
- Oct 26, 2026, 12:49 PM
@matt @whitequark yes, i get that. i'm often asking myself, "am i just becoming conservative?" but i don't think it can be simplified like that. my focus, for now, is really quite narrow and concerned with making "works", or "art", and i'm trying to find a frame for my own works in that category rather than a commodity/automation/effiency category. i don't really subscribe to anything as being (un)natural, but rather trying to find useful axioms that can anchor my experience in reality.
- Oct 26, 2026, 12:53 PM
@matt @whitequark to overstretch this point a bit, what i mean is deciding on reasons for accepting this reality as a meaningful one to inhabit, despite all the suffering. mutual sharing of this condition and communicating it through "works" is such a reason for me. if this is taken away, there is only the absurd left, or "the nausea" of depersonalization.
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 2:11 PM
@mntmn @matt yeah, i respect that. i don't share the desire to avoid depersonalization or to find meaning in pain—dunno if you have chronic pain yet but that sorts that part out real quick—i think personhood is at least as commonly oppressive as not—but it's a good reason, at least
i don't think i have a framework like this built for myself. i don't think i need a framework like this built for myself; i would only need a framework to convince someone, and i needn't convince myself that the way i want the world to be is important
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 2:16 PM
@mntmn @matt one thing i come back to is: efficiency for whom? like, the EU border is very efficient, if you're white and speak English, for me it is and has always been the opposite. efficiency at achieving what outcome? we both know what it does.
i don't really abandon the notion of efficiency. i could let my body fall into such level of disrepair that i do nothing of meaning again. that would be inefficient, and that's the strongest argument not to do it. but it has little to do with the commodity production
- Oct 26, 2026, 2:19 PM
@whitequark @matt yes, my main takeaway is that i need to be a bit more verbose to avoid misunderstandings. what i mean is the dogma/altar of efficiency/productivity gains as the highest goal in commodity production, not e.g. in private life.
Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:09 PM@matt @whitequark @mntmn this is an interestingly fraught one for me, because I wish I could agree in principle, but the practical situation that educators are facing requires this sort of restriction, given absolutely pervasive dishonesty among students right now. it’s not so much that this is an obsession with “old ways” as an asymmetric conflict. enforcing academic honesty against a student with a computer is harder, and educators are effectively having their job made impossible by cheating
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:11 PM
@matt @whitequark @mntmn so it's not so much "disabled people can use a computer because they need help but regular people don't need affordances" as it is "I can monitor 5 students for cheating with computers and there are 3 disabled students who require one for exams in my class, so I absolutely need to make sure nobody else is allowed to use one because I am close to my maximum capacity"
- Oct 26, 2026, 4:12 PM
@glyph Removing the other two from this subthread because I admittedly brought a current hobby horse of mine into this.
- Oct 26, 2026, 4:14 PM
@glyph Part of my position on this is that I just want handwriting to *die already* for anything but personal use (journaling, private note-taking). The use of handwriting as an anti-cheating measure also disadvantages blind *instructors*, and those do exist.
- Oct 26, 2026, 4:19 PM
@glyph Plus, call me unduly optimistic for the current times, but IMO kids shouldn't grow up learning that computers are something to be restricted. They should be getting the most benefit possible out of computers in everything they do, and learning to get the most out of them.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:32 PM
@matt I _really_ wish I could agree with you on that. But from what I have heard from the educators in my life, particularly in tertiary education, you would not believe the degree to which academic dishonesty is both widespread to the point of unanimity and breathtakingly brazen. as a professor that I know recently put it, "colleges are turning out mindless idiots with no integrity and could not care less if they learn anything and professors are essentially powerless to stop them"
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:35 PM
@matt despite my unusually screen-positive attitude as a parent (and speaking of ableism, it is almost impossible to stop people from talking about computers of all types as 'screens', despite hating that terminology myself) I am also fixed in a fairly constant and typical power struggle with my own child over device use. nearly all software is designed to be addictive, full of ads, and consent-disrespecting now, even reading apps
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:35 PM
@matt heck, even *library* apps are full of "ads" and algorithmic recommendations and infinite scrolls even though they get no direct rewards from doing so, just to be *legible* to people who are accustomed to other software nowadays
- Oct 26, 2026, 5:00 PM
@glyph Fuck. I guess I've spent too much time reading about computing history and not enough observing what most people are stuck with in the present. So I'm still clinging to the old dreams of Engelbart, Kay, Papert, etc., and the whole optimistic spirit that they embody. Computers were such a positive thing for me growing up, I don't want the current and future generations to have any less, and progress means they should have even better.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 5:08 PM
@matt I share that hope, I am just having the dismal reality of the present day shoved into my face constantly. I still think there’s quite a bit to salvage. but the reality of classroom computing is BAD right now, even before ChatGPT. AI is just pivoting a massive problem into a full blown crisis. see for example this recent exposé: (which is hopefully not a complete accessibility nightmare) https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/hooked-youtube-videos-schools-junk-infiltrating-classrooms-google/
- Oct 26, 2026, 5:12 PM
@glyph Am I obligated to take in some of that present reality? I guess if I willfully ignore it as a strategy for staying productive (which for me isn't just about making money/making a living but also producing useful things for my community), then I should just stay out of policy discussions.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 5:15 PM
@matt not really. I would probably encourage you not to point the despair lasers directly at your brain unless you feel like you need more information to make a specific contribution here. but it’s useful to know that people are not lurching away from computers merely because of reactionary attitudes or unthinking ableism; they are attempting to mitigate some immediate, desperate problems
- Oct 26, 2026, 4:24 PM
@glyph I admit I don't know what to do about forcing students to learn something that society has decided that they need to learn, or that they need to learn to get a desired credential, but that they don't want to invest the effort in.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:49 PM
@matt BTW, as I understand the current political landscape, there are two primary camps. The reason that I come down frequently on the "handwriting" side is that the other side is "rootkits". There's an increasing push in proctoring software to load via kernel extensions, to let students take tests on computers & from home for "accessibility" reasons, but to turn on their microphones and cameras and sometimes persistently enable MDM for the "proctoring" software. So I'm team notebooks.
- Oct 26, 2026, 5:38 PM
@glyph If the choice is only between notebooks and rootkits, I might have to be team rootkits. Anything that requires special exceptions for a handful of disabled students puts a target on their backs when it comes to relations with their peers, assuming that exceptional status is visible to their peers. So I very badly want a solution that allows every student to use computers, for the same reason that we want everyone to use encryption, not just those who especially need it.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 5:42 PM
@matt well, happily, nobody really cares what either of us thinks. and we will definitely get both notebooks AND rootkits and the worst of both solutions 🙃
really glad I am not a teacher right now
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 5:44 PM
@matt sighted students get a notebook in class, blind students get a windows-only rootkit that breaks their screen reader and leaks their bank details to the bratva. yaaaay
- Oct 26, 2026, 5:47 PM
@glyph On reflection, wanting sighted kids to have the rootkit too would be unfairly wishing revenge on the world for my particular experiences in school.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 5:47 PM
@matt btw I should note I am not _happy_ about notebooks. they make the situation much worse for “invisible” disabilities. ADHD students who require more time can no longer do so discreetly because they need to be physically present and writing in a blue notebook. dysgraphic students will be punished harshly for taking significantly longer to form legible words. dyslexic students will be unable to shift into a different font. this “solution” sucks.
- Oct 26, 2026, 5:49 PM
@glyph Honestly, I'm really on team "let everyone have unrestricted Internet and AI access all the time, and let the chips fall where they may for our crappy educational system". But it's easy for me to say that because I'm not a teacher or a parent.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 6:01 PM
@matt even as a parent and a friend to many teachers that’s where I was for a long time, but that attitude only works if the problem is manageable and not resulting in the total collapse of entire schools, grades, or programs. if 70% of the class is getting some benefits from the computers and the remaining 30% could do better with some coaching maybe we could argue those kids would fall through the cracks anyway and say the system needs to take its medicine
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 6:01 PM
@matt when it’s 97% of the class spending all their time on social media and cheating with AI chatbots, while taking brief breaks for suicidal ideation with those same chatbots, with the remaining 3% getting a baseline mediocre education but thinking they are world-historic geniuses, the amount of harm just needs emergency measures to stop. to be honest a lot of teachers are just quitting if they can find ANY other work, I suspect we will see a labor crisis in a few years
- Oct 26, 2026, 5:44 PM
@glyph Yeah. Not my battle to fight, I guess.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:24 PM
@matt I wish I could agree, because of course we should have accessible and universal pedagogical techniques as much as possible, but as I understand it (even completely outside of cheating problems) there's a great deal of research that shows that handwriting improves memory encoding and is an excellent study tool for sighted people. Removing this tool for everyone because some people cannot use it seems like a strategically poor move for educators.
- Oct 26, 2026, 4:26 PM
@glyph Not just accessible *pedagogical techniques*, but thoroughly normalizing the method of communication that's universally accessible (digital text), and marginalizing the one that's not (handwriting).
Oct 26, 2026, 4:19 PM@glyph @matt @whitequark @mntmn I really never understood the headspace of cheating, even when I was a dumb little undergrad failing all my classes I would still make an honest effort to learn the material because even the idea of cheating felt like robbing understanding from myself
However, I figure there are probably a lot of people who attend school because they Have To to get a job in today's market, and they may be studying a subject they don't particularly enjoy and / or have no time because they're working through college (something I thankfully did not have to do). I guess I can understand the motivations for cheating in that case, but I still think it's a faustian bargain
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 4:24 PM
@zrb @glyph @matt @mntmn today's market? I dropped out because this was thrust upon me back in 2010s, and after being lied to about having to go to school for studying there just wasn't any motivation left to actually study (on top of PTSD and having to move out somehow to survive). honestly, if I could have bribed the school to just issue me a diploma I would do that, considering how it's a pre-requisite for being treated like a human when immigrating into the EU. it is pure luck that my skill was enough to not need that kind of stuff (and Brexit, Brexit has helped me immensely)
- ✧✦Catherine✦✧whitequark@treehouse.systemsOct 26, 2026, 4:27 PM
@zrb @glyph @matt @mntmn but to give a direct answer: you cheat at things that you don't take seriously, that you perceive as a meaningless obstacle. the specific school I went into did not qualify (I liked the subject and it brings me joy to this day... well, most subjects, I failed diffequations eight times) and I didn't commit academic misconduct, but the institution of education and the way diplomas buy you immigration or jobs very much fit the bill. I wouldn't begrudge someone cheating through school with genAI if they knock it off when working with me.
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:39 PM
@whitequark @zrb @matt @mntmn in principle I agree with all of this, of course, every other aspect of our society has made "education" load-bearing in a deeply dysfunctional way. but hopefully you can also understand that …
- Glyphglyph@mastodon.socialOct 26, 2026, 4:39 PM
A) professors are responding to similar pressures, because it is personally disadvantageous to their *own* reputation, career, and ultimately survival if it is found that they are routinely certifying incompetent liars as having skills that they do not