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  • Oct 15, 2026, 6:42 PM

    @dalias @datarama there's a thing buried in here too where our society refuses to properly invest in retraining and employment disruption insurance programs. if you invent a miserable-shit-shoveling machine that perfectly and immaculately does the work of a miserable-shit-shoveler, immediately freeing them to do something other than miserably shoveling shit for a job, and in the course of doing this you make them homeless and despised, you can't really fix the *machine* to address that

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  • Oct 15, 2026, 6:43 PM

    @dalias @datarama everybody who does a properly obsoleted job SHOULD be given a substantial bonus, emotional hazard pay for having to reformulate their sense of self, and maybe a parade to thank them for their service for getting society to that point, instead of quiet desperate irrelevance and a probable ignominious death. but I don't know if it's quite fair to heap all that at *programmers'* feet

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  • Oct 15, 2026, 9:18 PM

    @wronglang
    @glyph @dalias @datarama
    hi, it's this world. it makes sense for capitalists because the visible fate of the obsolete workers is an important part of the system that disciplines the as-yet-unobsoletr e workers. we can talk about the ethics and meaning of labor and all, but most discourse on these subjects in this society does not address this central reality, that if you fail to somehow make yourself useful to capital or its handmaiden the state, you will likely be social-murdered

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  • Oct 15, 2026, 11:28 PM

    @wronglang @glyph @dalias @datarama that wasn't the intent, but it does seem to be what the incentive structure selects for. still, i know sociopaths who are good people, who scorn to ascend within that structure. the structure's the problem, and the class that it serves.

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  • Oct 15, 2026, 7:03 PM

    @glyph @dalias When I was in my late teens, if I went to a public park there'd sometimes be a bunch of people mowing the grounds, doing simple weeding work and the like. Most of them had mild-to-moderate cognitive disabilities, and this sort of "menial" work was the only thing left for them to do.

    Now they've been replaced with robot mowers - but many of them, now in their senior years, still hang around the parks, picking up bottles to collect the bottle return fee, and sometimes just cleaning up trash if they find it. They're not economically desperate or homeless (and you don't make *that* much from a day's worth of bottle returns) - virtually all of them are on disability pensions, which is a livable income here. I've talked to many of them (as I also did when they were employed and I was some young delinquent smoking weed in the park, so some of them instantly recognize the older and at least outwardly more respectable me). They do it because they like to feel useful. That at least they're contributing *something* to the community. They don't like to feel "useless".

    And honestly, this is *the same thing* I feel when I'm staring down the barrel of unemployment.

    Now, I should mention that I live in a culture with a social-democratic work ethic, which is perhaps the only thing that's even harsher than a protestant one. But it generally seems to me that many people genuinely like feeling that they're contributing something to the fellowship, and often feel bad if they're deprived of a way to do so.

    I'm not saying we should take Enoch's hammer to the robot mowers! But I'm saying that something that *to me* looks like miserable shit-shoveling might well be the thing that makes someone else feel like there's at least a small thing they can do to keep the community running. And if the last 30 years have taught me anything, it's that programmers are not necessarily the right people to make these judgment calls.

    And certainly, programmers organized in privately-owned corporations aren't.

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  • Oct 15, 2026, 7:18 PM

    @glyph @dalias Now, humans are not tools and are not made for any particular purpose, so "useless" and "useful" are not really terms that make sense to apply to people. And much as I struggle with the now-near-constant intrusive thought of viewing myself as "soon useless" because LLMs are being deployed to do things that used to be meaningful parts of my work, it is not a term I would ever apply to anyone else. So obviously there's some cognitive and emotional distortion going on here, for reasons that are probably as much personal as anything else.

    But I do think the wish to be "useful" - in the sense of providing some kind of contribution to the well-being of the community, however small - is something that sticks deeper than culture - and therefore, also deeper than the constructs of wage labour and productivity.

    Personally, aside from *seriously* not liking the thought of no longer being able to meaningfully contribute - regardless of whether I was economically comfortable on an adequate UBI - I find a very strong motivation in doing a job well. I enjoy writing good code, I take a craftsman's pride in it. This is another reason why LLMs feel like a straight-up insult - and why I was already extremely frustrated with my trade before they showed up, because the entire incentive structure has long been arrayed against the struggle for quality.

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  • Oct 16, 2026, 11:11 AM

    @datarama

    Interesting topic, thanks. Yeah, I too have the feeling it's "deeper than culture".

    My intuition, and I could be wrong, is that the wish to make a difference in the world is intrinsic to humans. I feel like quite a lot of vandalism (when not done for reasons of politics or resentment) is actually this impulse combined with "having nothing better to do".

    I'm not saying humans can't _ever_ enjoy feeling they can't have any effect on the world, because I think that can feel good as a temporary holiday, especially if you're over-functioning the rest of the time. Like if your only "time off" is when you physically can't do anything! But most people would find it highly unsatisfactory as a long-term state.

    I think for most people it's also a preference for the results to be helpful to other humans (or other entities), and the big variable is the scope of which humans. Most people doing killing and hurting have it put together in their heads that they're helping _their_ lot.

    I think there _can_ be people whose group is only themself. I'm not sure whether that's always from childhood abuse/neglect or whether some is genetic.

    Of course there is also a lot of culture involved around this territory: things like _what_ is considered useful at different times and places, how children are raised in relation to their own autonomy, whether it's considered important for everyone to have a role where they _can_ contribute, etc.

    @glyph @dalias

    #HumanNature

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