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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 5:46 AM

    RE: floss.social/@kde/117322549131

    things this post does:
    1. places the blame on the KDE community
    2. dismisses kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
    3. dismisses opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevant

    this this post doesn't do:
    1. apologise
    2. mentions that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
    3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
    4. make literally any lessons for the future
    5. apologise!!

    i no longer consider #KDE a community project.

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  • thesupertechie :v_gay:thesupertechie@lgbtqia.space
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:10 AM

    @Hearth @Yuvalne It has a real "covering up our shitstorm" vibe. I'm saddened to see that that's the choice KDE is making. As I was saying in a different reply elsewhere, I was ready to recommend them to non-techies. And yet they keep. shooting. themselves. in. the. damn. foot.

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  • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:onepict@chaos.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 6:52 AM

    @Yuvalne As one of those folks who signed. I did so as an active user of KDE on Debian.

    I signed it as I wanted to make it clear that as an indicator of consent. I don't.

    More user communities should.

    I'm going to have to figure out a new Desktop environment when I rebuild my machine. DE and packages become popular because folks install them and gosh, become users of your stuff.

    I don't know why this is so hard for the Devs to understand.

    dotart.blog/cobbles/ai-and-tha

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  • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:onepict@chaos.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:53 AM

    @Yuvalne thanks for taking the time to read it.

    But the only reason that post exists in the first place is because my project turned down the LLM help from someone who really likes and uses LLMs.

    Their reaction and the personal example is what put me in mind of my twenties. Tech does have a consent issue.

    It's not hard for a project to say no.

    There is definitely an element of "but he does good work" in these projects that accept the fascist or other forms of abusive people.

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  • Dźwiedziudzwiedziu@mastodon.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 9:22 AM

    @onepict
    I first I thought this is about a nazi at a bar, but putdown artist works very well.

    (Personal on PUAs: I have a personal beef with PUAs, as I got entangled by them years ago, when I was younger, didn't went far, but fucked up my love life anyway.)

    @Yuvalne

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:20 AM

    @Yuvalne You can freely fork KDE.

    Please note, that in OSS developers wrote software primary for themself as they invest their free time into it.

    Users can have requests and wishes, but developer it the one to decide what to implement and how to implement. Especially when users request can be in conflict.

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  • risjlalarisjlala@mastodon.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:38 AM

    @Yuvalne @mkyral As someone who isn't very active in forums or developing KDE, but am using KDE with Debian, what exactly is (or was) community based about KDE?

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:47 AM

    @risjlala @mkyral
    from #KDE's own manifesto manifesto.kde.org/:

    We are a community of technologists, designers, writers and advocates who work to ensure freedom for all people through our software. Because of this work we have come to value:

    - Open Governance;
    - Free Software;
    - Inclusivity;
    - Innovation;
    - Common Ownership;
    - End-User Focus.

    so yeah, KDE considers itself a community. so did i. i no longer do.

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 8:01 AM

    @mkyral @risjlala even assuming that is the correct interpretation (i don't think it is), what makes you think the people who signed kdeforpeople.com can only be classified as "end users"?
    i am for example a tester. i'm also a funder. i'm a technologist, and i'm very much an advocate.
    can signing a petition be called anything less than "advocating"? that applies to every single signer.

    you wrote in another comment that KDE isn't a community project but a software project. i agree. that's bad.

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 8:09 AM

    @Yuvalne @risjlala

    Petition on kdeforpeople.com is equal to user request. There could be another petition requesting adopting LLM proposal as is and another petition requesting accepting any LLM commit 🤷‍♂️

    Depends on "community of KDE developers and other KDE authors" what they agree to choose.

    KDE is Open Source software and it is not bad. It is a fact.

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:52 AM

    @Yuvalne

    Wikipedia is a community project, OpenStreetMap is a community project.

    KDE is Open Source Software.

    There are users around KDE, but not all are part of the KDE users community. Many of them does not care about development if all works as they like.

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 9:51 AM

    @dzwiedziu @Yuvalne As a KDE user since 0.98, as a OpenStreetMap contributor since 2013, as a developer who does not like LLM, I care.

    But I also understood how OSS projects works and I understood that LLM is and will be there. And it is only on developers how they set rules. Unfortunately constructive discussion was ruined by several aggressive people 🤷‍♂️ And this is not OK.

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  • Dźwiedziudzwiedziu@mastodon.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:12 AM

    @mkyral
    > (…) I understood that LLM is and will be there.

    pivot-to-ai.com/2025/07/10/ai-

    > And it is only on developers how they set rules.

    So the developers don't care about the users (again!)

    > Unfortunately constructive discussion was ruined by several aggressive people 🤷‍♂️ And this is not OK

    No, it is not okay.

    But locking the rest of the community out the discussion looks like “not caring”.

    There are moderation tools for this, FFS!

    @Yuvalne

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:20 AM

    @dzwiedziu @Yuvalne I already mentioned this above…

    mamutovo.cz/@mkyral/1173248016

    And also there is a big group of users that did not stepped into discussion yet because they don't care about development process but only if they like the result.

    Also sentence:

    "So the developers don't care about the users (again!)"

    is not true - these users are loud, but definitive does not represent all users. E.g. they don't represent me.

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  • Dźwiedziudzwiedziu@mastodon.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:26 AM

    @mkyral
    Fork a large FOSS project, in THIS economy? \s

    > And also there is a big group of users that did not stepped into discussion yet because they don't care about development process but only if they like the result.

    This is “silent majority” vibes. As in pretending to speak for the users that didn't weigh in.

    Because you did a survey with those users, and that's where you got this opinion, so this is the source of your care?

    @Yuvalne

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  • No Coffee in Hellemma@orbital.horse
    Sep 24, 2026, 6:48 PM

    @mkyral because Open Source is demonstrating it's not solving the problems actual people face. People need stable software that doesn't spy on them, or use slop. Depending on volunteer labor or labor paid by a corporation isn't meeting those goals. Software, like housing and healthcare are properly community, not corporate or state, projects.

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  • No Coffee in Hellemma@orbital.horse
    Sep 24, 2026, 6:53 PM

    @mkyral and I should not have said "people like you" but the "maintainers have sole say over a project's direction worldview." My apologies.

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 6:59 PM

    @emma

    Ou, devil maintainers. Did you/ do you maintain any project? It is not an easy task. But in OSS you always have a way. You can fork and maintain by yourself. If you have better vision what others want, you will win.

    E.g.: OpenOffice vs. Apache Office vs. Libre Office.

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  • No Coffee in Hellemma@orbital.horse
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:15 PM

    @mkyral I helped engineers manage Firefox bug reports at Mozilla from 2015 to 2020, I know the job.

    One of the many things I learn in that role was that it was essential to assign severity and priority to defects and let engineering teams schedule that work, but that features are a very different workflow/beast (even if they came in through Bugzilla, they needed to be marked as features and enter product backlogs.)

    But the community of people using the product from expert to the lay user just trying to schedule an appointment online does have a right to expect that the work isn't causing harms, and LLM generated patches and bug reports cause harms in that LLMs enclose the commons and crowd out the electrical grid, that their use causes cognitive harms, and the output of LLMs are untrustworthy.

    All of those reduce the community's trust in the project.

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  • No Coffee in Hellemma@orbital.horse
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:19 PM

    @mkyral to go back to Mozilla, the insistence on adding AI features, depending on Google for funding, and acceptance of LLM-generated patches all undermine Firefox.

    The community needs a say here.

    And a drum I've often banged on here is that Firefox should be funded like public radio, and not part of a monopolist's anti-trust evasion strategy.

    Community funding is a way to align the maintainers with the people using the project.

    I need to look at KDE's funding model.

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  • No Coffee in Hellemma@orbital.horse
    Sep 24, 2026, 7:21 PM

    @mkyral this is a long-winded answer but to sum it up: I'm not surprised that under the current system that maintainers feel they can ignore community concern about using LLMs, and that we need to change the system so that maintainers don't go unpaid and don't have to align with corporate power to get paid and do the work.

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 8:32 PM

    @emma It is not true they totally ignore community concerns. At least as I see current situation. Proposal was OK to me - we do not accept AI slop and lazy poor quality patches. There was an constructive discussion until toxic people entered the discussion and ruined it.

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  • No Coffee in Hellemma@orbital.horse
    Sep 24, 2026, 9:05 PM

    @mkyral my understanding is that people learned that one of the people advocating for LLM patches is a fascist, and calling that out is not toxic. There is no room for fascists in any project or endeavor.

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 9:43 PM

    @emma I don't get it. How is this relevant? Why do people call everyone and everything fascist these days?

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  • Marián Kyralmkyral@mamutovo.cz
    Sep 24, 2026, 6:54 PM

    @emma No. True open source is:

    "Hi, I have made this program for myself, but could be useful for others as well, so there is source. If you found bug, have fix or improvement - please tell me, share back."

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  • Dźwiedziudzwiedziu@mastodon.social
    Sep 24, 2026, 9:15 AM

    @Yuvalne
    Wow, good job #KDE at proving my assumptions that you don't care.

    mastodon.social/@dzwiedziu/117

    This is almost literally saying “this job would be perfect, if it weren't for the users”.

    Also the author mentions the harms “AI” does and then goes on “but it's good for some people”.

    Like, what we're even doing here?

    (Maybe I should just post this under that quoted post and light up the @davidgerard signal?)

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:12 AM

    @Yuvalne
    I imagine you've seen the famous presentation, and haven't formed an opinion merely based on the title?

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:27 AM

    @iinavpov just using Nate's own characterisation of that presentation as "a talk proposing “a lovable, sovereign, AI-native KDE” [that] had been accepted at Akademy 2026".
    if kdeforpeople.com, a mere list of signatures, is "an attempt to [crossed out: brigade] pressure KDE into banning LLMs", how's that presentation as Nate describes it not an attempt to pressure KDE into embracing them?
    if the presentation as Nate describes it is not that, how's kdeforpeople.com also not what he calls it?

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:35 AM

    @Yuvalne
    Nate is clear he hasn't seen the talk. He's clearly tried to gauge how it was received.

    I actually saw the talk. The title is very much disconnected from the content. I have no information on reception.

    It *very much* wasn't pushing LLMs. So as far as pressuring anyone, it was doing a pretty terrible job.

    You should go see it: it may make you revisit how trustworthy this or that account of events is.

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:39 AM

    @iinavpov so if Nate hasn't seen the talk, why is it fair for him to characterise it as "a talk proposing “a lovable, sovereign, AI-native KDE” [that] had been accepted at Akademy 2026"? and why is it okay for KDE to repeat that claim by sharing his post as a "first-hand, blow-by-blow account on what went down"?
    if Nate hasn't seen the presentation then it's not a "first-hand, blow-by-blow account on what went down", and if he misrepresents it then it's not "a verifiable timeline of events".

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:43 AM

    @iinavpov also, you focusing on the part that worries me the least about the whole thing and specifically asking me again to watch the presentation, which is ireelevant because the post you're replying to is about what Nate's response does and doesn't do, is pretty much a form of sealioning.
    so instead of getting distracted i'll ask you directly about the thing that worry me:

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:46 AM

    @Yuvalne
    I think you got cut.

    I agree that it's not an account of what happened. It's that account from Nate's (incomplete, probably biased) viewpoint. Which is not the same thing.

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:49 AM

    @iinavpov
    - was Nate justified in his characterisation of the Nazi and ofnthe actions done to said Nazi?
    - was Nate right to say to characterise members of the community who are not direct contributors as "people mostly outside of KDE"?
    - was the KDE project right in not apologising to the various people banned from expressing their worries about Nazis in the community, some if which are to my knowledge still blocked?
    - Was Nate right in his only lesson being "avoid creating unnecessary drama"?

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:52 AM

    @iinavpov and to ask the three big questions:
    - what is to be done with Nazis in the community?
    - does the opinion of non-contributor community members (about AI or in general) matter?
    - is KDE still a community project?

    those are the things that worry me. not was or was not said in one presentation, which Nate later mischaracterised yet claimed his description was "verifiable", which KDE repeated as a "first-hand account".

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:56 AM

    @iinavpov and going back to your comment, the "account from Nate's (incomplete, probably biased) viewpoint" just became KDE's response. so it actually matters very little to the future what actually happened, since what i care about is what happens with KDE in the future.
    my conclusion from this post is:
    - KDE is not a community project, it's a developer project.
    - the problem with Nazis in the community is they cause drama.
    - same with the AI policy proposal.

    i hope you see why i'm unhappy.

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:59 AM

    @iinavpov
    going back to the three big questions, the answers seem to be:
    - ban them if they're called out, but also the person who called them out if they violate procedure, and shame that person
    - no
    - also no.

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:04 AM

    @Yuvalne
    All open source projects are contributor (not developer!) projects. Sorry.

    I emphatically disagree that the only problem with Nazis is drama, and I did *not* get that from the text.

    I understand you think that the only AI policy acceptable is "it's forbidden". The current policy is "it's allowed". The revised policy looks like it's aiming for "it's restricted".

    I don't like LLMs and refuse to use them. I also feel no right at all to forbid their usage to anyone.

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:11 AM

    @iinavpov
    if you're unable to think of one other criticism of the AI policy (and crucially, about the process surrounding it) other than "it's not forbidding it altogether" then you are part of the problem
    but let me help you a little bit:
    why does the opinion of community members as expressed via kdeforpeople.com not taken into account? why does it not count, why is it not even worthy if a refutal?
    is KDE a community project? does the community have input in shaping the project's AI policy?

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:17 AM

    @Yuvalne
    If the only acceptable policy is "it's forbidden", detailed criticism of any other policy is a waste of time.

    I don't like LLMs I would like them banned. It's not my place to make that decision, enforce it, or (thankfully) deal with the shit storm.

    But I also don't like that people trying to restrict use (which is going my way) get piled on because "it's not good enough".

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:22 AM

    @iinavpov you're wildly missing the point and it's hard for me to tell if you're doing that deliberately.

    a policy proposal was created, quickly locked for developers only, later after much uproar archived.
    the position of kdeforpeople.con was dismissed and not even taken into consideration. there was no attempt to reply to its points.
    Nate apologised for causing unnecessary drama and nothing else.
    KDE shared the post with that conclusion.

    do you see an issue with that?

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  • Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️Yuvalne@433.world
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:25 AM

    @iinavpov i know you disagreed with the framing of some of the questions i asked, so let me repeat just the ones you haven't challenged.

    - was Nate justified in his characterisation of the Nazi and of the actions done to said Nazi?
    - was Nate right to say to characterise kdeforpeople.com as "people mostly outside of KDE"?
    - was the KDE project right in not apologising to the various people banned from expressing their worries about Nazis in the community?

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:43 AM

    @Yuvalne
    I don't know what you mean by Nate's characterisation of the Nazi, because you haven't said what you mean.

    I presumptively agree with Nate on the kde for the people.

    The third point requires way more characters than I have. I don't agree with your framing, but I know how rules are used by bullies to bully, and I know how difficult moderation is. And I don't feel I'm legitimate to pass judgement.

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 11:39 AM

    @Yuvalne
    I would agree with your opinion of events if I agreed with you that this was what happened.

    As it is, because we don't agree on what happened, it's not relevant.

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  • Nemoiinavpov@mastodon.online
    Sep 24, 2026, 10:58 AM

    @Yuvalne

    The Nazi was banned for being "unacceptable and people wanting nothing to do with him".

    KDE is contributors in a broad sense, always had been. From coders to bug reporters. People who never interacted before with the project in any capacity can fairly be described as "not KDE".

    If there is a code of conduct, and it's enforced selectively, is it a code of conduct? If I stab a Nazi, I may have done the morally right, I'm still going to jail.

    On the lessons, that's not what I read.

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