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Grassroots Joejoeinwynnewood@mstdn.social
Dec 1, 2025, 3:44 AM
"[S]omething like 92% of countries in the world have 10x the renewable potential of their current demand. There are not a lot of limitations here.
You can imagine a world where all or most countries are energy self-sufficient. That is a fundamentally new state for humanity to be in. We’ve never experienced anything like that. The energy flows and energy dependencies have shaped human history and society and ...
Clean electrification is inevitable
https://www.volts.wtf/p/clean-electrification-is-inevitable
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Replies

Bill Tschumybtschumy@mas.to
Dec 1, 2025, 4:50 PM
@joeinwynnewood “Clean electrification is inevitable”
Clean electrification is a myth. We won’t be able to “electrify” our way out of the crisis. Electrification will require a huge increase in mining along with its toxic effects on the environment and damage to indigenous people.
Just to build all the infrastructure needed for full electrification will require huge amounts of fossil fuels. Let’s not kid ourselves.
Please see this recent post by @gerrymcgovern :
https://gerrymcgovern.com/dirty-nickel-mining-powering-clean-energy/
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 4, 2025, 6:48 AM
@btschumy @joeinwynnewood @gerrymcgovern
If the solution isn't electrification what is it?
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 4, 2025, 6:57 AM
@scribblesonnapkins
The solution is a massive reduction in energy and materials. But nobody wants to talk about that. Even many environmentalists want to live in tech fantasy land: that we can save the environment and keep on growing the economy once we electrify everything. This is an enormous big lie.
@btschumy @joeinwynnewood
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 4, 2025, 7:01 AM
@gerrymcgovern @btschumy @joeinwynnewood
But what replaces electric power for everything?
All our fossil fuel infrastructure needs to be replaced with something even if we stop growing economically.
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 4, 2025, 7:22 AM
@scribblesonnapkins
But sadly that will never happen. There has never been an energy transition in history. It's always more, more, more of everything. The new energy form feeds off and needs the other. 2-3 ton of coal to make a Chinese EV. Trump and Putin will pump every last barrel. We must prepare for environmental collapse, and what comes after.
@btschumy @joeinwynnewood
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 4, 2025, 7:57 AM
@gerrymcgovern @btschumy @joeinwynnewood well we have never reduced consumption as a species but your wrong about there never having been an energy transition. We adopted petroleum and phased out whale oil, we also got rid of peat as a source of heat. I live in Massachusetts and we don't ship ice around the planet anymore for cooling.
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 4, 2025, 8:39 AM
@scribblesonnapkins
Here's a great book that explains the history of energy
More and More and More
by Jean-Baptiste Fressoz
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/464145/more-and-more-and-more-by-fressoz-jean-baptiste/9781802067316
@btschumy @joeinwynnewood
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Grassroots Joejoeinwynnewood@mstdn.social
Dec 4, 2025, 12:39 PM
@gerrymcgovern
Wow, the doom & gloom is sooooo motivating!
China is leading the way on making clean electricity cheap and abundant. They have reached peak coal use way ahead of plan. They will eliminate coal, eliminate importing oil and help much of the oil consuming global south do the same.
Moreover, the enormous efficiency of electricity over combustion means needing 70% less energy to do the same work as fossil-fuels. That's a pretty big buffer for growth.
@scribblesonnapkins @btschumy
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 4, 2025, 5:03 PM
@joeinwynnewood @gerrymcgovern @btschumy
I don't think china is on the right path. At some level they are exchanging the CO2 waste problem for a nuclear one. I like hydro power particularly for storage is IMHO the future. However their dam building projects have been ecologically wreckless.
"That's a pretty big buffer for growth."
We are going to have to do a lot of work to replace all the infrastructure. The economy just requires moving money, not energy growth.
Less is still more.
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 4, 2025, 5:10 PM
@joeinwynnewood @gerrymcgovern @btschumy
Keep in mind the solar panels have a limited lifespan.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/solar-energy-isnt-always-as-green-as-you-think
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Grassroots Joejoeinwynnewood@mstdn.social
Dec 4, 2025, 8:00 PM
@scribblesonnapkins
Have you seen up to date data on solar and wind deployment in China?
https://www.weforum.org/stories/2025/12/china-adding-more-renewables-to-grid/
Three times the total installed and under construction from nuclear was installed just last year, 10x the under construction nuclear.
I won't be surprised if we see the nuclear investment dropping in favor of cheaper and much faster wind, solar and virtual power plants.
@gerrymcgovern @btschumy
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Grassroots Joejoeinwynnewood@mstdn.social
Dec 4, 2025, 8:17 PM
@scribblesonnapkins
And that solar panel piece is eleven years old, ancient history.
https://www.smartsolarenergyco.com/solar-panel-lifespan-and-degradation-curve/
Panels last at least 25 years and are at least 85% recyclable into brand new panels.
That the US is lagging behind in recycling of decommissioned panels shouldn't be a surprise, but fortunately we are mostly alone in that.
The clean electricity economy can and should be a largely circular economy greatly reducing the need for raw materials over time.
@gerrymcgovern @btschumy
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 4, 2025, 10:39 PM
@joeinwynnewood @gerrymcgovern @btschumy
85% recycling is possible but that's with a substantial energy use. I have seen no evidence since the IEEE story ran that they actually cut the emissions associated with panel manufacture. I work in electronics so I have seen behind the curtain on how manufacturing is and isn't dirtier than we expect outside their country.
That said I do I believe you that they are pushing ahead on recycling and on wind and solar generation.
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Grassroots Joejoeinwynnewood@mstdn.social
Dec 5, 2025, 1:18 AM
@scribblesonnapkins
As the grid gets greener, and it is getting greener (if not yet fast enough), the emissions fall.
Recycling clean tech material reduces the cost of the next manufacturing cycle using the recovered materials (nearly always much cheaper than mined) which will further speed the transition to cheaper, cleaner renewable energy. The cheaper the energy, the cheaper the recycling, the cheaper the next solar panel.
Virtuous cycles are pretty awesome.
@gerrymcgovern @btschumy
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 5, 2025, 5:48 AM
@joeinwynnewood
Unfortunately, the grid isn't remotely getting greener. The opposite. Globally, more coal, oil and gas than ever. Hydro is an environmental disaster. Recycling is a total joke and con. Every year, the economy becomes more linear. We talk about batteries. Batteries are among the most toxic products ever developed.
Totally agree about buses and walking. Because of AI, etc., we are accelerating towards collapse, when we should be braking.
@scribblesonnapkins @btschumy
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 5, 2025, 6:13 AM
@gerrymcgovern @joeinwynnewood @btschumy
I think the attitude is kinda too doomer. I can't debate all of this. I want to say not all batteries are bad but I think BESS is misguided. I fail to see how turning Quabbin into pumped hydro would be bad ecologically. It's already an artificial reservoir.
I see your criticism but none of your ideas for valid solutions.
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 5, 2025, 6:39 AM
@gerrymcgovern @joeinwynnewood @btschumy sure stop ai but what next? You want me to give up my career in engineering and live in a urt?
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 5, 2025, 6:53 AM
@scribblesonnapkins
We're in an impossible situation, and I can clearly see you're sincere about doing the right thing. I can only see civilizational collapse coming. We are just so vastly degrading our environment on multiple levels. I think now our job is to save as much as possible of Nature so that there is something worthwhile left post-collapse.
@joeinwynnewood @btschumy
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Grassroots Joejoeinwynnewood@mstdn.social
Dec 5, 2025, 12:03 PM
@gerrymcgovern
I assume you are familiar with geometric progressions.
Renewables today are satisfying all of the growth in energy needs in much of the world. The growth in renewable production making that possible is on an increasing upward slope. Translation after absorbing all the growth in energy needs, renewable production will begin to eat into the turf of fossil-fuels. The bites will get bigger if not every day, certainly every quarter.
@scribblesonnapkins @btschumy
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 5, 2025, 1:41 PM
@joeinwynnewood
No I am not familiar with them.
There is no such thing as "renewable" energy. This is all fake energy industry propaganda. And the idea that batteries are "clean" is surreal.
The reason solar panels are now cheap is because Uighur slaves are building them in China, and China is devastating Indonesia, Myanmar, the Andes, etc., to get all the necessary metals. The Green Transition is all about Green Sacrifice Zones in the Global South.
@scribblesonnapkins @btschumy
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 5, 2025, 2:05 PM
@gerrymcgovern @joeinwynnewood @btschumy
Plastic recycling is a con
Glass recycling could be better
Metal recycling is mostly real
Paper recycling is totally a real
Batteries (lithium based) are dirty but we can use them minimally
Hydro can be done responsibly in more cases
I am very well aware of geometry progression
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 5, 2025, 2:07 PM
@gerrymcgovern
Citation needed for the forced labor use on solar manufacturing. Labor is tiny on that stuff compared to energy use and chemical waste processing.
@joeinwynnewood @btschumy
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 5, 2025, 2:08 PM
@scribblesonnapkins
Uyghur Forced Labour in Green Technology, Anti-Slavery International, 2024
https://www.antislavery.org/reports/uyghur-forced-labour-green-technology/
China uses Uyghur forced labour to make solar panels, says report, BBC, 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57124636
Report exposes solar panel industry Uyghur forced labour links, Anti-Slavery, 2021
https://www.antislavery.org/latest/solar-panel-industry-uyghur-forced-labour/
Secrecy and Abuse Claims Haunt China’s Solar Factories in Xinjiang, Murtaugh, Dan, Colum Murphy, Bloomberg, 2021.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-xinjiang-solar/
@joeinwynnewood @btschumy
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Evanscribblesonnapkins@mastodon.social
Dec 5, 2025, 2:12 PM
@gerrymcgovern @joeinwynnewood @btschumy
Thanks. I was already aware of their emissions & waste from this being worse than anyone else but I didn't know about the forced labor.
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 5, 2025, 2:18 PM
@scribblesonnapkins
Among other things, China cuts down 14,000 football fields worth of tropical wood in Myanmar every single year just to make the charcoal for the silicon smelting process. (It uses lots of coal too.) China is absolutely devastating Myanmar for rare earths, etc. Just another Green Sacrifice Zone that we never hear about for all this "renewable" and "clean" energy. BTW, all mining oligarchs do the same.
@joeinwynnewood @btschumy
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Gerry McGoverngerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
Dec 5, 2025, 2:11 PM
@scribblesonnapkins
Electronics recycling is less than 20% but is effectively about 5% because only about 30% of materials are retrieved from recycling process. And every year it gets worse because of product design decisions.
And the recycling itself causes environmental harm.
@joeinwynnewood @btschumy
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